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How could you differentiate between someone who's effeminate and someone who's really a woman in, I don't know what context, but inside? Well, it's not our place to differentiate as an outsider, it's our place to ask. Well, it's important to those people, right? Don't those people want you to identify with who they feel like they are? Very much we do. And do you know people like this? Like, do you have friends like this or do you have personal relationships with people that kind of have this viewpoint? I'm transgender. College is considered an institution of higher learning. Where students are supposed to be challenged, their ideas are questioned and to become the best future leaders of our nation. I decided to go to the University of Texas in Austin to find out what the best and brightest of our state had to offer. We hear that our institutions are being infiltrated with feminism, communism, liberalism, atheism, but maybe they have better ideas. I put them to the challenge to see if anyone could prove me wrong. Hey, it's Pastor Shelley at the University of Texas in Austin and we're talking to different students here today about salvation. The argument we have today is I believe salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ and we're talking to different people. People here, not everyone's a Christian, people have different views and so we're talking to some different people. And who am I talking with today? Hi, my name's Zen. Nice to meet you. And Zen, do you have any religious background? Yes, I was born and raised a Mahayana Buddhist. Buddhist, very interesting. So when it comes to your view of the afterlife, when someone dies, what do you think is going to happen to people that die? My religion believes and I believe that you are judged by the deities by which you worship and then they determine what you reincarnate as. If you are a good person, you get a good thing. If you're a bad person, you get a bad thing. If you were an okay person, you get an okay thing. Is there something you're hoping to be reincarnated as or is there something you have a goal towards? Ah, that's a really hard question. I have always had a fascination with whales. I have always wanted to be a whale. A whale is a hard thing to be. You have to be a very good person to be a creature of statue, so a stature. So I would hope to be a whale, but I don't think it's achievable. Whales are definitely large mammals. I've heard that they're musical that they sing. Have you ever heard that before? Yes. Is it possible you can sing like a whale? It is not. Alright. Are you musically gifted today? Do you do any kind of singing today? I play cello. Interesting. I like that. So when it comes to your belief about deities, you said that the deities are going to judge you. Do you have a number like how many deities there are? I personally do not. There are different schools of Buddhism the way there are different schools of Christianity. I subscribe as a Mahayana Buddhist to the belief that there are many different deities, the big ones, the small ones, the same way in the Greek pantheon, there are more important deities and less important deities. The one that affects my life most is Avalokiteshvara, the goddess or bodhisattva, we call her, of love and compassion. So she is the one I worship and the one who will judge me. Okay. And is this something like you get to choose which deity or is there a reason why you believe this deity has power over you? Why did you recognize that specific deity in your mind? In my case, it was something that was born upon me, Avalokiteshvara is a very big deal to my family. My little sister is actually named for her. Her name is Eva and love and compassion are some of the central values of our family. So she is who we choose to worship with the most veneration. So if I wanted to become a Buddhist, is that possible? Like I can convert religions? Yes, of course. My parents converted. And if I converted, do I get to pick like which deity would be important to me or how does that work? Yes. Based on the values that you most want to exhibit in your life, you pick a deity or several deities or you don't have to pick one at all that embody the values you wish to become. Just so I would understand like what options may be out there. Are we talking about like dozens of deities, hundreds, thousands, millions? What's kind of like just a general idea of like how many deities you kind of believe to be out there? Oh, definitely not hundreds or thousands, solid dozens. I think it's like 30 max. But that being said, there's you know, there's the big ones, there's the small ones. You've got Shiva, the creator and the destroyer, which is the same deity. We believe that life is two sides of the same coin. There is life, there is death and it is all the same. What about, I've heard of Krishna. Is that a deity in Buddhism? Yes. Krishna is a deity that applies to both Hinduism and Buddhism. So Mahayana Buddhism is affiliated a lot with Southern Asia, especially India. So the two religions makes a bit. Now I've heard some Buddhists and again, you said there's different sects, so I'm just kind of interested. I've heard some Buddhists have a desire to basically cease to exist in a context or maybe become one with the universe. What are your thoughts on that viewpoint? The Theravada school is very compelling. I was actually raised Theravada and converted to Mahayana later in life. My family and my father was a devout Theravada Buddhist and although he did eventually cease to be, I believe that he did achieve his goal and I don't believe it's a very human thing to do. I believe as a Mahayana Buddhist, there are elements of human you have to be. You must love, you must hate, you must be emotional and Theravada is almost very monastic. You should be devoid of emotion. So again, I don't have as much exposure to Buddhism, so I like to ask some of these questions. But if someone's reincarnated, is it always something that's like an organic, something that has a life force, or could it be something that's like, in our minds, something that's not alive, like a rock? You could be a rock. I could become a rock. Could I become just like energy or like particles? What is the limitation on what I could be reincarnated as? There is no limitation. In fact, a lot of people in the Theravada school of thought believe that the greatest goal is after death to become energy, to become one with the void that is space. So just so I understand, is the sun like somebody, like somebody became the sun at some point in time? No, I don't believe so. I suppose it's not impossible to hold that belief. I don't know anybody who... The way we see it, in order to become something of stature, you must be an incredible person. So to be a whale, for example, would be one of the highest things you could become. To be the sun seems almost impossible. It's a lofty goal in Buddhism. And just so I kind of understand, how did things start? Is there a genesis to Buddhism? Did all these deities, have they always existed or was there an initial creation story? What is your kind of view on just how things came to existence or into being? There is a creation story. There are many different creation stories. Some deities were born of other deities. Shiva the creator created the world. Personally I subscribe to the more modern belief, you know, evolution and all that, that Shiva didn't really create the world, but that it was a way of explaining things that came before that were hard to explain. I do believe that deities were born of other deities that they helped to create and to empower us. So would you subscribe to the Big Bang as an initial starting point for creation? Is that kind of where you lean? Yes. A scholar of science, definitely. Okay, so in the Big Bang, were these deities created through the Big Bang or do you think they were outside of this initial creation event? I would say that as the earth was formed and as things came to live, that those things needed something to empower them, something to hold their beliefs intact, and thus the deities were created. Okay, so what about other religions? I don't know what kind of exposure you've had to the Bible or Christianity. Have you heard of Jesus before? I have, yes. What is your opinion on Jesus as far as like, do you believe that he was a real person, that actually, you know, about 2,000 years ago there was a guy on the earth named Jesus? Do you think that was real? Yeah. So, from a historical perspective, you know a lot of religions have based their religion on different views of Jesus. You know, if you look at Judaism, they think he was a blasphemer and kind of a wicked person and that he's burning in hell. If you look at Islam, they think he was a prophet, but that he wasn't being the Son of God. And Christianity believes that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, that he came here and died for the sins of mankind, and that he is the one who created everything that we see today. Of those kind of three different views, do you kind of lean more towards one of those, or do you have an alternative view about who Jesus was? I'm subscribed to the very Buddhist standpoint that Jesus was a guy, like a literal man, who was originally a Jew, which I think the Bible says, and then he went on to learn some teachings. And there's actually, I believe there's a 30-year period in the Bible where Jesus kind of... I have a bad swearing habit, I almost said that he f**ks off to the middle of nowhere, but that he disappears for a bit and returns with all these teachings. And a lot of historical scholars believe that that 30-year period he actually traveled over to southern Asia and learned some Hinduism. And so some of the Christian teachings are loosely based on Hinduism, which does seem to light up. I don't really... I suppose I don't know. So I mean, obviously I agree with you, there's probably crossover between some of the things taught in Hinduism or Christianity, just maybe basic moral teaching, things like lying's wrong, stealing's wrong, things like that. And so it seems likely that one is mimicking the other. Not necessarily. It doesn't prove which one's mimicking which in my mind, but it does prove there's probably some overlap. Would you agree with that view? Not necessarily. It is very common, especially historically, that people come to believe or to know things at similar times, even though they've never communicated. Different forms of cave painting have been invented, for example, across the world, even though those people never had contact with each other. So I think the beliefs and the foundations of moral systems was probably a big focus during that time. And while it's possible that there was overlap, we cannot be sure without record. Okay. When you're talking about morality, you kind of talked about being like a good Buddhist or obviously there's something that you're being judged upon. How does one, if they want to achieve a high status in Buddhism, what is it that they have to do to get to that high status? Well, the big thing that people tend to know is that one should meditate. One should become familiar with their innermost self. One should follow the Eightfold Path, which is, again, kind of our Ten Commandments, don't lie, don't steal. Except ours are a little more broad, a little more general. We have right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right intentions. So it's basically a combination of being spiritual and doing it through meditation and following the commandments. Is that the right word? Sure. Yeah. Okay. Is there more than these Eight Commandments or are they just basically encompassing of all moral teaching? Again, this is very dependent on sect, kind of the same way that certain sects of Christianity focus on other sections of the Bible more than others. We focus on certain books or certain teachings more than others. For example, a lot of Zen Buddhists, which applies heavily to the Japan area, are focused on within the home, peacefulness. A lot of Theravada Buddhists and Mahayana Buddhists are focused on giving alms to the poor. That's a big part of being Mahayana, is you celebrate. We have a holiday similar to a Sabbath called Anupasatva. Today is Anupasatva, in fact, during which we give alms to the poor, we wear some measure of white, and we follow a couple of very odd rules, but in my opinion, the rules are set there as a form of breaking the norm and getting in touch with oneself. Okay. When it comes to following these rules and subscribing to this teaching, is this coming from a text, or is this coming from a church setting, like a pastor or teacher or something like that? Where do you learn about this, if you want to learn about this? If you want to learn about this, I would suggest you find a local temple. Temples often are filled with monks and with teachers and with the laity or the lay people who we are all willing to teach, but in the home, and at least in my part, I was taught largely by my father, who was a strong convert and very devout, but we also learn from books. There's the Dharmapada, the Sangha. If you are Vajrayana Buddhist, which is even further South Asian, so more very, very strongly associated with Hinduism, there are Vedic texts even that become very important. Okay. Of course, I have a different viewpoint that I'm putting forth today. I believe that the Bible teaches very clearly that we're all sinners. The Bible says, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, so no one's perfect. We all have shortcomings. As a result of that, because of our sin, the Bible says there's a punishment, which would be a place called hell. Hell is described as a place in the center of the earth. It's also a supernatural place. It's not just a physical location where the Bible says that the soul would be destroyed for all of eternity. The Bible teaches that God is comprised of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three persons have always existed, and they, as God, God created the entire world that we see today. Unfortunately, because we've sinned, he would have to punish us, but he doesn't want us to go to hell. So he sent his son Jesus Christ to this earth to bear the sins of the world, and he died, was buried, rose again. And according to the Bible, that's what's called the good news of the Gospel, that all one has to do is believe what Jesus did for us, his death, burial, and resurrection as the payment for our sin. And the Bible makes it clear that once someone trusts in Jesus, that they would be saved and they'd be saved forever. Of course, the Bible does teach it's important to follow God's commandments and to be a good person, but no one's perfect, therefore salvation itself is apart from our works. It's only by believing in Jesus Christ that someone would be saved. So based on what I'm saying, what do you think about kind of—that was a quick rendition of the Gospel—what do you think about that? I think that everyone is allowed to believe whatever they feel is true. Personally, that's not a philosophy I ascribe to, but more power to you if you do. Do you think that there's objective truth? No. Okay. So do you think truth is relative? No. How would you describe truth? Does it exist? Yes. And how could I know that something's true? I suppose truth is relative so far as scientific theory is relative, if you understand that. Okay. So just to use something simple, two plus two equals four is usually what mathematicians will say is true. Is that objectively true? Yes, that's been proven by mathematical theorem and heavy proof. So I just want to make sure I understand, because I'm not trying to trip you up. I just want to make sure—you kind of—it sounded like you said there was an objective truth. Yeah, and then I did go back on myself there, didn't I? I just want to make sure what you mean by that. So what I mean by that is, so far as you can never say one thing is pure fact, and there's no other fact but this fact, everything is theory. Everything is, we have all this proof to support this conclusion, and as far as we know at this time, this is what is correct. Do you think that we're really sitting here, or is that just a theory? I do think that we're really sitting here so far as the material world is concerned. So there is some form of reality in the sense that things are true regardless of my personal opinion or personal perspective. Is that true? Yes. Could someone have dysphoria of the mind where they think something's true but it's objectively not? Yes, it's quite possible. It's actually—there's several psychological disorders that are afflicted by that. Like if I said I'm a seven-foot black guy, would that be true? It would not. Okay. So there is some basis upon which we can make judgments upon, and that I think would be objective truth. I think someone appreciates science, it's trying to find out facts and use those facts to support a potential hypothesis or a potential theory, and sometimes those theories can become a law. Is that true? Yes, it is. Is a law an objective truth? Yes. Okay. So, you know, I believe that the Bible is true. So I wouldn't think that—again, my personal opinion doesn't make something true. But the Bible could be true regardless of my personal opinion. What do you think about the claim that the Bible is true? I believe that there is evidence within the Bible that suggests that it is not true. It is possible that there are parts that could have happened historically, but there are some parts which it is just not possible. So I'm not expecting you to be an expert on the Bible, but what would be a claim that the Bible makes that you would say, you know what, I don't think that's true at all. I think there's evidence to say that that's not true. That Jesus rose from the dead. That is not possible. So the Bible does have many miracles. That's not even the only one. That would be something that suspends natural law. Cures the blind, multiplies food. I'm aware of the miracles, but those things just aren't possible. So that would be the definition of a miracle. Would you say that miracles cannot happen? Yes. Okay. When it comes to the Bible, it does teach that salvation is by faith. It's something you have to believe. You can't necessarily see everything or know everything for sure right now. You have to trust in it, right? So you don't know what you're going to be reincarnated as, it sounds like. Does that take some level of faith? Yes, it does. And I do believe that salvation is by faith alone, but by the Buddhist faith. I couldn't prove, to be honest, out of doubt, what you might be reincarnated as. Is that true? Yes, that's true. So do you think that I right now could turn into a whale right now if I wanted to? Absolutely not. If someone did turn into a whale right now, would that sound like it would be a miracle or suspension of natural law? Sounds like it would be horrifically impossible. So I believe that Jesus rose again from the dead, which is a miracle, but you're suggesting that a person could become a whale. Is that not also believing in a miracle? I'm not suggesting that a person becomes a whale. I'm saying that after you die, it is possible that my soul inhabits the body of a whale. I do not believe that I can materially change into a whale, nor that anybody could. So it's just basically putting on a new set of clothes when you become this whale creature. Is that a better way of explaining it? Sure. Could I do that right now? Could I take my soul out of my body and put it into a whale's body right now? Absolutely not. Would that be a miracle if I did? There's no such thing as miracles. You know, there's movies and just fantasy where people have the idea of people switching bodies, right? Maybe there's movies out there that do these kind of things. I don't believe that's true, but let's say if someone did think that's true, that would be an example of a miracle. Is that true? It's hard to answer that question because that type of thing simply isn't possible. Right. So I'm saying since it's impossible, if it happened, it would be a miracle. It would be something... It would be a violation of natural law. Sure. A suspension or violation or alteration to natural law, that would be... we both agree with that. Is that true? Yes. So how is it not the same that if I believe in the suspension or the alteration of natural law that Jesus rose from the dead, that that would be a miracle? And if you believe that a soul could change bodies, albeit through death or whatever process, that that also would not be a suspension of natural law and would be somehow a miracle? Natural law does not apply to death. After death, the cycle starts or continues. The problem that I have with Jesus rising from the dead is that he returns to the same form and not only that, returns as Jesus, the same person. So it violates reincarnation in the sense that not only did he die, but he came back in his exact same body and he showed the holes in the hands from the cross and this violates the principles of Buddhism? Yes, it does. Is that because Buddhism teaches you have to change forms? No. Why could someone not come back in the exact same form? You're judged differently. It is judged that you should not be so. Okay. What if someone did exact, like whatever their standard was, you know, they got an A plus on the test or whatever. I don't, I'm using this as just an analogy, but they scored 90 out of a hundred. Why wouldn't they potentially come back as the same creature if they score the exact same on the judgment scale? If you score the exact same on the judgment scale, you will be reincarnated as the same species. So if I do something worthy of only being human, I will become human again. Could a man die and be reincarnated as a woman the next time? It's quite possible, yes. Would that person still feel like a man or would they feel like a woman? They would feel like a woman. Okay. If someone says that, let's say someone's in a man's body physically, biologically, but they feel like a woman. Do you think that that is true or do you think that they are kind of denying the reality of who they are? Oh, I believe that's quite true. Okay. Is there any limits to this? So like, what if I felt like I'm an animal? Like I just feel like I really connect with a particular animal. Is that true or would that kind of cross into a threshold where I'm kind of being delusional? As in you have a fascination with animals and pretend to be one or that you truly believe you are an animal? Those are two different things. Yeah. I'm saying I believe that I'm a dog. That kind of thing isn't possible or would be considered a psychological concern. But I could believe I'm a woman and that would not be a psychological concern. No. Okay. What about if I think that I'm seven foot? That's also a delusional viewpoint? Well, it's not delusion. That would just be wrong. Okay. So there is some limitation, but basically the only thing that I could identify as that is not matching my physical body that would still be true would be gender. Is that kind of your viewpoint? I suppose so. Okay. Why is it that you believe that someone could think that they're a different gender than their body? Scientific evidence supports as such. If you were to look at a CAT scan of a transgender person, maybe someone who was born male but identifies as female, you would be able to see their left and right brain firing in patterns that match a biologically female pattern. There's also such psychological evidence to support great efforts with dysphoria both of the mind and of the body. What about the idea of a man being feminine and there's a word in our culture called effeminate. Is it possible that someone is just effeminate and they're not actually feminine, they're not actually a woman in the sense that they have some of the same characteristics or acting like a woman, but they're not really a woman? Is that a possibility? It's possible to be an effeminate man, yes. How could you differentiate between someone who's effeminate and someone who's really a woman in, I don't know what context, but inside? Well, it's not our place to differentiate as an outsider. It's our place to ask. Well, it's important to those people, right? Don't those people want you to identify with who they feel like they are? Very much we do. And do you know people like this? Like do you have friends like this or do you have personal relationships with people that kind of have this viewpoint? I'm transgender. So just so I understand, like you think that, or I want to understand, what would you say that you identify as then? I identify as a man. Okay. But would you say that you were born in a woman's body? Yes. Okay. And at what point do you believe that you decided that you were not female or was this something you've always felt like was true? Well, one can't decide not to be female. That's just the truth of the matter. I was born a biological female and for the rest of my life I will remain a biological female, an unfortunate fact. However, that being said, I have known from a very young age that I did not associate with many feminine characteristics and as I grew to hit puberty became increasingly not just uncomfortable, but even confused about why my body looked the way it was. In my mind, this was not what I was supposed to look like, I suppose. And as I began to seek the advice of doctors, my peers and my family, even the advice of different religions, it was revealed to me that in fact it is okay to be as I am. Well, I think that the Bible does clearly disagree with that viewpoint. It doesn't teach that men and women can be born incorrect as far as like a man is always a man and a woman is always a woman. Obviously, some people could have a deformity and maybe they're gentle to area and so as a result they are maybe sterile, like the Bible calls them a eunuch. But generally speaking, and in 99.99% of cases it's immediately obvious that someone's a man or a woman without exception. Would you say that there was a point in time that you fully embraced this and maybe made a change? Or again, is this something that was just inherent? I've always kind of known, I've always been uncomfortable as far as a child can be aware of oneself, but I came to terms with it when I was about 13. Okay, so around 13 is maybe when you came to this realization or identification. And do you feel like when it comes to you kind of did a religious search. At that point in time, were you aware of what the Bible says or what Christianity teaches on this issue? I was. And what did you feel about how the Bible talks about this issue? Felt it a shame. Do you like the God of the Bible? Like if you were to assess the character of the God of the Bible, what's your opinion of him? Your God of the Bible seems much like how we interpret the human condition as Buddhists, that life is suffering, the cause of suffering is desire. The Old Testament God seems very vengeful, very hateful, and the New Testament God seems very different in comparison. So in the New Testament, God and Jesus Christ, they send out wrathful plagues on all of the earth and they just in large portions of humanity are being slaughtered and killed through all kinds of evils. There's even these locusts that come out of hell and they sting people repeatedly. So that portion of scripture doesn't seem like when people say that God of the Old Testament is wrathful and the New Testament is not, it doesn't seem like that's necessarily true to me. It seems like the God of the New Testament has a lot of wrath as well. Is that true or what is your view on that? I have no particular view on it. I can't say I'm familiar enough with the Bible, I suppose. So in the New Testament also? I do apologize, but I forgot to get to class. Okay. Well, thanks for talking with me, alright? Of course. Thank you.