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The views and opinions expressed during this livestream do not necessarily represent the views of Framing the World. Individuals are invited to be interviewed for their unique perspective on specific topics, and not because Framing the World agrees with or endorses all other areas of opinion. Listener discretion is advised. I saw a post somebody did saying, you know, the masks aren't mandatory, but you can't buy or sell unless you wear one. And same thing, Mark of the Beast isn't going to be mandatory, but you can't buy or sell unless you have it. And I mean, you can see why we're all getting freaked out by some of the stuff that they're doing right now, because we know this kind of thing is going to come, that the beast is going to have this kind of power. You don't get power like this overnight. You know, you don't just go from a free world or even living in a free country to just take this mark or you can't buy or sell and we're going to find you and we're going to kill you. You know, that's obviously people are going to get a little, you know, are getting a little freaked out by some of the stuff we're seeing now because we know what's coming. All right, guys, well, thank you so much for joining us here today. We are going to be speaking with Pastor Tommy McMurtry. He is the pastor at Liberty Baptist Church. You can go check him out at Liberty Baptist or I'm sorry, GiveMeLibertyBaptist.com. If you're in the Rock Falls area, make sure you check him out. But we're going to have him on the program talking about the Antichrist today. So we're going to be talking about the rise and the fall of the Antichrist. We're going to be talking about what we know for sure about the Antichrist and we're going to be talking about some speculation on what we think the Antichrist is going to be like. And so it should be a good show. If you didn't hear our last conversation where we talked about the temple, the third temple, that was a super fascinating episode. I really encourage you to go check out that episode as well. But I plan on having Pastor McMurtry as a regular on this show because he has a lot of great insight into Bible prophecy, has a lot of great insight into the Bible itself. And so he's a real interesting guy. If you're anywhere near the Rock Falls area, this is your church, guys. So make sure you go check him out. And I want you guys to support Framing the World. And one of the ways you can do that is through subscribing to Brighteon and BitChute. And so I want you guys to head over to these channels and subscribe to these channels and UggTube as well. It's so important to spread the message about this show while I have a YouTube channel. And I know I'm on my backup channel but at least this channel gets a little bit of views. These alternative sites don't get many views at all. But someday I'm going to be forced onto these channels and I want to have someone to talk to. I want to keep the show going and if I get 12 views an episode it's going to be pretty rough and pretty discouraging. So I want to encourage people to head over to these channels and subscribe now while you can or while you're thinking about it. And so you can support us and follow us on Brighteon and BitChute. I have 51 subscribers on Brighteon. And what do we got here? 282 on BitChute. So we're slowly but surely getting more and more subscribers here, guys. Let's at least reach 300 here by the end of this episode. Hopefully we can get 20 of you guys that are watching to head over to BitChute and Brighteon after this and subscribe over there. But we're going to be talking about the Antichrist here in a little bit. But before I do that I also want to show you the new designs we have on our store. So we have the COVID 1984. We also have a bunch of different COVID shirts. I survived 2020. We have Plandemic. We have so many designs now for you guys to choose from. We also have Christian Designs which is, one of my favorites is this one, Jesus is Essential. And another really cool one is hashtag soulwinner. And so you can get all these shirts in these three styles. The blue, the black, and the gray here. And I don't have all the options on the website right now, but if you order a shirt and you say, hey I want it on this style of shirt and it's not on the site. Just shoot me an email, film.99.yahoo.com, or shoot me an email through the website and that will go to me. And just let me know, hey I want this shirt in a different style or with a different ink. No problem, I can make that happen. So I'm pretty flexible. I make all the shirts on demand. And so when you order them, I make the shirt after you order them. And so, yeah it just really cuts down on costs and it's pretty fun. So I enjoy doing the shirts. So I hope you guys enjoy the shirts and get them. Get yourself one. So guys, this show is being sponsored by the Romans Road app. Make sure you head over to the Romans Road app. You can find the link in the description of this video. Go and download that app. And all of our supporters on Patreon guys. You guys are such a huge blessing. We got more Patreon support this month. And so that was exciting. We went positive this month and not negative. So that's always a good thing. But guys, thank you for your support and prayers for this channel. We definitely need it over here. I hope you had a good Thanksgiving. I hope you had a good time with your friends and family. But yeah, let's, I think that's pretty much all I wanted to talk to before we get started here. This is going to be an awesome conversation. Make sure you share it. It's probably not going to be a short episode tonight. It's probably going to be pretty long. But it's a little bit longer than most shows. So make sure you share this episode. There's a lot of show coming up. And we're going to be talking about the Antichrist, the rise and the fall of the Antichrist. We're going to be talking about what we know and what we speculate on. So yeah, I think let's just get right to the show. Pastor Tommy Murtrie, how are you doing today, sir? I'm very good. Awesome. Well, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Every time I talk about the Antichrist, it's interesting and exciting. I don't know why. Just ever since a kid, I've always been into Bible prophecy. It's always something that's just really excited me. So I think this is definitely going to be an interesting show. I can tell you why that is. Why? Because I've always felt the same way too. Because we're always, we're all interested in the Bible stories. We grew up listening to them in Sunday school. Well, this could be a Bible story that we are a part of. I think that's why it's just so fascinating is maybe one of those people getting put to death by the Antichrist, one of those people doing the great exploits, that might be me. So it makes it more real. So that's why I think people are so interested in it. Yeah, for sure. And I think another reason is because I guess as a kid, they didn't really talk about it much in our church. And so every time they did, it really interested me. And then as soon as that Thief in the Night came out, I mean that came out earlier, but as soon as I watched that and then the Left Behind films, it got me really into Bible prophecy. And obviously I didn't understand any of it, but it all kind of made it exciting. And that was kind of, you know, got me down that rabbit hole. Right. Yeah, I think I remember watching the Thief in the Night movies. I was real young when those came out. But then, yeah, so I was always interested in Bible prophecy. But then I read the Left Behind books and that really got me. Wow. So you went the extra step and read them. What's that? You went the extra step and read them. Yeah, I read all of them. Yeah, I read the prequel. They ended up coming out with the three book prequel. And then they did a sequel about the millennial reign. And you know what, I never finished that one. By the time I got that one, I kind of started changing on Bible prophecy. And then, I don't know, it just kind of frustrated me. And there was just, I don't know, I don't know how you read all those books. And then you just can't read that last one. But I started it and I never finished it. Oh, man. And all the, there's tons of them too. My mom had them all on her shelf, the whole line of them. So I saw them, but I never read them. Yeah, the main series had 12. And then they had the three book prequel and then the one book sequel. They had a Left Behind Kids collection too that you could get where it was a whole other set of stories, but they all lined up with the Left Behind stories. I think they even had some of the characters and things in there. I never read any of those. I never got into those. So let me ask you, how, is it just, is it well written or is it just like garbage literature? Yeah, I hate fiction. You know, because I've never been, you know, I've always read, but I've always kind of had to make myself read. I'm not the kind of person that just wants to sit down and read a book. It's worked for me to do that, but I feel like I need to read, you know, being a pastor and everything. And so I, you know, I've always read stuff, but fiction just seems like a waste of time. I don't read for entertainment. I read to learn. So when I started reading those Left Behind books, I thought, well, this is going to help me with my Bible prophecy. And so that was kind of, I was interested in it for that reason. But then I got, you know, I got hooked on just the storyline too, and the characters and everything. I mean, my daughter Chloe is named after Chloe from the Left Behind books. You know, I mean, you know, I hate to admit it, but you know, I mean, I almost started crying when, you know, when, when Buck Williams on the last day, I mean, they've got like, I hate to ruin the books for anybody if you've never read them before, but I mean, it's like the last day of the tribulation, Jesus got to come back at Armageddon and he gets killed in an earthquake. I think it was. And I was just, but you know, he was right back the next day, but yeah, it was, they were very well written. And another thing that I think fascinated me with those books is a lot of the there's several things that happen in the Chicago area there. And then there's a lot of stuff that happened in Israel. Well, you can tell when these guys wrote these books, they actually went to these locations and they are in detail, explain these locations. And they talk about the King David hotel in Jerusalem. We stayed at that hotel. And so they're writing about stuff in that hotel. I'm like, I know exactly what they're talking about, you know? So that kind of thing, you know, the it made me enjoy the books that much more. And I'm not, I've read almost no fiction about the only fiction I've ever read in my life. Besides the left behind books was fictional books. I was forced to read in school. I was about it, but those, those books, I, I thoroughly enjoyed. I would be on the edge of my seat, just waiting for the next one to come out. And sometimes they'd release the first chapter early and I'd be online reading that first chapter, just waiting for that book to come out. And as soon as it was out, I was at the store buying it. I hate to admit all this stuff, but it's just, just packed. It's the way it was. Well, you weren't the only one. I mean, millions of people bought that book. Yeah. So that was definitely huge. Yeah. I didn't get started on them until I think they were on the mark. I think the market just come out, which was like the sixth one, I think. So they were about halfway through it. So I just, you've been binged, read those first six books. And then like the end of the mark, it literally ends with the, the Antichrist dropping a bomb into Petra. Oh, that's where all, all the Jews and stuff we're hiding. Yeah. They're explaining all that too. And you've been there before. Yeah. And I'm reading about everything in there and I know exactly what he's talking about because I've been there not long before and he's literally dropping a bomb in there and a lot of the main characters are in there. And that's where it ends. And it was just like, what in the world, you know, and I had to wait for the next one to come out and then found out they kind of had a Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego type experience. It exploded. It blew up. There was fire everywhere, but it didn't hurt anybody. Yeah. Well, I bought the board game, so I have that going for me. Oh yeah. I had the board game too. You did? Oh yeah. Yeah. We used to play that all the time. All right. I guess as a left behind episode. Yeah. We just gave them a bunch of commercials. They're going to all of a sudden get another surge in their book sales after all these years. Well, I wanted to talk about the Antichrist and kind of go through it. I know you kind of prepared a little bit for the show, but I think it'd be interesting to just kind of go through and talk about the times it's mentioned and show what we know from the Bible and then do a little bit of speculation as well. Okay. Well, yeah. I think one of the things that you got to overcome when studying Bible prophecy is, I guess, cleaning your brain out of all the stuff that you've heard. And we're going to speculate on this program because there's just a lot of stuff that we just don't know, but people have been speculating on it for years. And a lot of times speculation can kind of become doctrine. And there's things that people have said and they've repeated so many times, everybody thinks this is just a fact, this is how it's going to be. And then a lot of times that kind of thing, it can cause stumbling blocks in your study because you feel like you're not seeing something right because it doesn't fit with how you think. And again, I don't think it's wrong to speculate. We're all going to do it. But we do want to make sure we don't turn speculation into doctrine. So don't take any of my speculation I give you today and turn it into doctrine. I'm going to be telling you what I think. But I will say when it comes to speculation, a lot of it is based off of clear scriptures, some not so clear. And so I guess when it comes to me personally, and I'm not even going to sit here and act like I've got all the answers when it comes to understanding Bible prophecy, there's plenty of things I'm still scratching my head about, but my approach when studying prophecy is I always try to have revelation be my starting point. And then all the other scriptures I kind of use to help maybe interpret something in revelation. And I think a lot of people, they do it backwards a lot, especially in the dispensational world, in the pre-Trib world, they like to start in the book of Daniel, and they interpret revelation in light of Daniel instead of interpreting Daniel in light of revelation. And when you do that, I think you're going to have some problems. And so I want to give you one example of that, and this is kind of a difficult thing to explain, but let's see what happens here. In Daniel 8 and verse 11, it says, So we read a passage like that, and automatically we're thinking tribulation, Antichrist, because we've got three and a half years mentioned, we've got the talk of the sanctuary and everything going on, but the thing that you've got to understand is when the book of Daniel was written, it was written during a time when the children of Israel were captive in Babylon. Daniel understood the prophecies of Jeremiah and about the 70 weeks, God gave him understanding in those things, and what this prophecy meant to Israel in the time when it was given, a lot of it was about their immediate future. For example, them coming out of Babylon, the Medes and the Persians coming, and then eventually the Greeks, and then the Romans taking over. That's what this was primarily about. Now, there's no doubt that there are things that are yet to be fulfilled from the book of Daniel, but at the same time, I think we fail to realize how much of Daniel already was fulfilled in many ways, and we're trying to force certain things in the book of Daniel into future prophecy. For example, on this one, at the end of this, after the 1230 days, he's talking about the sanctuary being cleansed. Is that referring to the future temple that we talked about a while back? Does that future temple need to be cleansed? I personally think that future temple is going to be an abomination, but yet here we have a prophecy about the temple being cleansed, and I personally believe that this was something that it will be fulfilled. Many of the things we see in Daniel that have not been fulfilled, they will be fulfilled, but in a better way under the new and better covenant. They're going to all be fulfilled through Jesus Christ, so there's going to be some details that might look a little bit different. Don't get me wrong. Every promise will be fulfilled, but it will all be fulfilled through Jesus, and so you need to understand when reading the book of Daniel, some of this stuff, it probably already happened. It already took place, a lot of it before Jesus came. Now, we know the abomination of desolation is still to come because Jesus specifically mentioned that. The apostle Paul specifically mentioned that in 2 Thessalonians. When I'm, I guess, forming my thoughts, I mainly go off of revelation. A lot of people want to talk about the Antichrist being a homosexual because about his desire not being to women. Well, that could have been a reference to one of those early kings that was a foreshadowing of the Antichrist. I'm not looking, I'm not necessarily looking for a homo to be the Antichrist. You know, it could be, but I don't have to see that. I think the mistake people are making, they're making almost everything in Daniel about the future when it's not. And even when things are about the future, there's going to be some differences because again, so he mentioned the temple being cleansed. Well, what was that all about? And I think we could find out from the book of Malachi, and Zechariah, there's a lot we could go in there. I don't have time for that, but in Malachi 3, it says, Behold, I will send my messenger. We know this is John the Baptist, and he shall prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in. Behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? And who shall stand when he appeared? For he is like a refiner's fire and a fuller's soap. And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, as in the former years. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. Now, that's the very last chapter of the Old Testament. And in the New Testament, what do we see? John the Baptist coming, preparing the way of the Lord. But the Jews, they killed him. The Levites, they rejected him. They killed John the Baptist, and they killed Jesus Christ. When Jesus came into his temple, Jesus, you know, he was angry at what he saw. They were not ready. They were not prepared. They did not receive him. He did not, there was not an acceptable sacrifice offered up. He did not purify the sons of Levi. None of those things happened. So where was the curse that he came to smite the earth with? Well, I personally believe that Jesus became that curse for us, and Jesus took that punishment for us. I believe Jesus is the one who offered up the acceptable sacrifice of himself. Jesus did all the work of the Levitical priesthood. Jesus did all of the work. Everything that the temple was supposed to do, everything that the sacrifices were supposed to do, Jesus Christ did all of it. So whenever you start saying there might be some things a little different, people try to tell you, you're saying God's not going to keep his promises from the Old Testament. That is absolutely false. All the promises were kept and fulfilled, but they were all kept and fulfilled through Jesus Christ and not necessarily through the physical seed in Israel. They weren't able to do it. So I say all that to say that if you read some things in the Old Testament that just maybe seem to conflict a little bit or don't seem to totally line up, just understand some things changed when Jesus came. The sacrifices ended, the temple's gone, and there's no need for annual sacrifice anymore. Jesus did it once and for all. So when we are forming our opinions on things, we should primarily think about the book of Revelation because we know all of that is to come. That was all written after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It was written even after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. This is the stuff that we're waiting for. This is what we're looking for. If I see something in Revelation and it might look a little different than what we see in the Old Testament, I'm focusing on what Revelation says. We can definitely get a lot from the Old Testament. We can glean little parts of what's going to happen in the future, but it makes sense that a lot of it was fulfilled back then. Right. And it's okay to speculate based on things that you see in the Old Testament. By all means, do that. But I don't get dogmatic off a lot of things I see in the Old Testament. I get dogmatic off what I see in Revelation and in the New Testament. And then if there's an area where the New Testament is silent about Bible prophecy and I see something in the Old Testament, I then will maybe use that for speculation. The problem that I'm seeing in the dispensational world is they're trying to force their interpretation of Old Testament prophecy to fit into New Testament prophecy. And it's just not working. It's a total mess. And I think it's because they miss the fact that Israel, they did not receive the Messiah like they were supposed to. They rejected him. They killed him. And I get it. That was always God's plan. God always knew it was going to happen. But at the same time, what I compare it to, because people get weird and they put words in your mouth and thoughts in your head when you say some of this stuff. But I guess the way to illustrate it is what would have happened if Adam and Eve never would have eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Is it okay to speculate on that? I do know they would have lived forever if they would have never eaten of that tree. Now, could they have eaten it 2000 years later and then death? You know, there's a lot of things that we don't know, but there are some things that we do know, and that is that had they not eaten of it, things would have been different. Now, just because God told them not to and God knew that they were going to does not mean that there wouldn't have been a different outcome, theoretically speaking, if they hadn't eaten of it. And so it's the same thing with all the things that God told the Jews to do that had they done them, some things would have turned out different. And so I think what people are doing is they're taking these passages where God told Israel, you know, like in Zechariah chapter 6, I believe it is where it says, And this shall come to pass if you will do these things. Everybody reads those passages as if Israel did all those things. But here's the problem. They didn't do those things. So that means what we see in there is not going to happen exactly like we see there because they didn't do what they were supposed to. You say, well, what about all those promises God gave? Well, he'll keep all those promises, but he keeps them all through Jesus Christ, not through physical Israel. And the dispensationalists have missed that because they still make it all about Israel instead of about Jesus Christ. Yeah. Well, I think a good place to start is just kind of where is the Antichrist mentioned then that we know for sure of? Okay, so yeah, in the book of Revelation, I think the first mention I think most people would agree is the first mention of the Antichrist, you could say in Revelation is in chapter 6 at the first seal. And it says, And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts say, Come and see. And I saw on behold a white horse, and he that sat on him had a bow, and a crown was given unto him, and he went forth conquering and to conquer. And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. So that that first seal is that white horse, and it mentions a corona, I mean, a crown given to him. And with that crown, he's able to go and he's able to conquer. He's taken over the world. And I do, I think that crown that's given to him is obviously a symbol of authority. And I think a lot of these things are going to, you know, the tribulation is going to kick off with the rise of the Antichrist with one man coming to great power. And we're going to see some other examples where, you know, that are very symbolic about the dragon, and it talks about all these different kingdoms giving authority to the beast. And so, you know, how all that's going to play out, it's all speculation. But I think pretty much everybody across the, you know, spectrum of pre-trip, mid-trip, post-trip, whatever, they would all agree that this Antichrist is going to be one man who basically becomes the ruler of the world, who is given great power and great authority. And I think a lot of that is based on chapter 6. In Revelation 11, verse 7, it makes another reference to him. It says, when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascended out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them and shall overcome them and kill them. And obviously, that beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is the Antichrist. And, you know, an interesting thing, too, you know, the Antichrist is never called the Antichrist in the Book of Revelation. That's only in 1 John. 1 John and 2 John is the only time we see even the term Antichrist. And I believe all of those references are referring to Jews. You know, in 1 John, there's no doubt it's talking about Jews in there because you've got a group of people who are saying they are of God, but they deny Jesus Christ. Well, who would that have been in that day? That would have been Jews. You know, they claim to have the Father, but they rejected the Son. And they were looking for another Messiah. There's no doubt the Antichrist, when it says now there are many Antichrists, it was Jews in 1 John. In 2 John, when it's talking about, uses the term Antichrist, it's talking about those who are given another gospel, those who deny that Jesus is a Christ. So, you know, I personally think when we are calling the Beast the Antichrist, you're basically admitting he's Jewish right there. If that's an accurate term, then I think we have to say that, you know, he's Jewish, you know, or a Messiah. He's got to be somebody who denies that Jesus is the Christ. If it's appropriate for us to call him that, then I think we have to admit that he's a Jew. But, you know, it was in the New Testament, it was mainly the Jews that went after Christians. And I don't think it's a surprise that in Revelation that we see him, you know, going after Christians. And he's overcoming them. He's killing them. In Revelation chapter 13, it says, And I saw upon the sand of the sea and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the names of blasphemy. And I think this beast is mainly representing a kingdom, not so much an individual. However, we are going to see in here that an individual is given all the power and authority of these kingdoms. And so to refer to this beast that rise out of the sea as the Antichrist is appropriate. But ultimately, I think it's talking about a kingdom, too, because that's consistent with what we see in Daniel also, where it mentions all the different beasts that it represents different kingdoms. And they always had a head over them. But anyway, so verse 2 says, And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, his feet were as the feet of a bear, his mouth was the mouth of a lion, and the dragon gave him his power and sea and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death, and his deadly wound was healed, and all the world wondered after the beast. Now, this is where people get the idea that the Antichrist will, and people speculate where he will die and come back to life. And I think that makes sense. I think that's a totally legitimate speculation, considering, too, that he is going to be trying to deceive people into thinking he's the Messiah. Well, it would help if you're doing things that it was prophesied the Messiah was going to do. And there's no doubt that there's prophecies in the Old Testament about the resurrection of the Messiah in Isaiah 53, and so he can claim these things. And I believe he will. Some people have interpreted this as, well, this is a reference to a revived Roman Empire, a kingdom that's coming back. And if it was just in Revelation 13 where it said that, I would say, yeah, that's probably more likely. The problem is, we'll see later, it's mentioning the individual, and it talks about his deadly wound being healed. So I don't think it's just about a kingdom. But it says in verse 4, and they worshiped the dragon, which gave power unto the beast. And they worshiped the beast, saying, who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him? So the dragon that gives the power to the beast, again, I believe that's this kingdom that rises, this world kingdom, but it gives all of its power and authority to the beast. And there was given unto him a mouth, speaking great things and blasphemies, and power was given unto him to continue 40 and two months. I believe this is a direct, or I can't think of the word. Reference? This is talking about the abomination of desolation. Because this is exactly what Paul talked about when he talked about that wicked one that was going to come, who is going to exalt himself above all that is called God, so that he has God, so that the temple is God, showing himself that he is God. That was, I believe Paul is quoting Daniel when he mentioned that. The Book of Daniel did talk about that. So I'll go back to the Book of Daniel. And when it's talking about that there, I will use that to talk about the future, because the apostle Paul did, okay? And so I will get dogmatic on that one, because Paul is dogmatic on it, and because John referred to it. The other passages, you could be right in your interpretation, but I won't get dogmatic on it. That's how I work anyway. But then too, you know, the abomination of desolation, we know that's in the midst of Daniel's 70th week, and it mentions after he does that, he continues 42 months. So most people sit on all sides would agree with this, I think, and I tend to agree that the Antichrist is probably going to be just a regular man, you know, who comes to great power. But most people believe that he will be killed, and he will rise again, but when he rises again, he will basically be indwelled by the devil himself. And I personally believe that, because when you kind of look at things in the second half, that's when it seems like, you know, he's even worse, and, you know, the devil, he's ready to do some serious business. But another interesting thing about that, though, is there's a lot of people out, well, not a lot, but I've known some people who believe that the Antichrist will be Judas Iscariot resurrected from the dead. And they will show all these comparisons between Judas and the Antichrist. They were both called the Son of Perdition. Judas, when he died, he went to his own place. And so some will say that was a bottomless pit. He's going to come back one of these days. But I personally believe that Judas, the Antichrist, will be Judas Iscariot, just as John the Baptist was Elijah. I believe the same spirit that indwelt Judas Iscariot, which the Bible says Satan entered into him, I believe will indwelt Antichrist. And so what was kind of controlling Judas after that Last Supper is going to be the same one kind of controlling things with the Antichrist. So I believe that's why we see those comparisons there. That makes total sense, and I've never thought about that. That makes total sense. Yeah, and some people are very dogmatic that it is, in fact, Judas Iscariot. On one hand, I'll say, okay, technically, you're right, because John the Baptist was Elijah, in a sense. You know, Jesus flat out, when the disciples asked him, hey, the scribes say that Elias must first come, Jesus basically said, yeah, they were right. He did. But they didn't receive him. They killed him, and they're going to do the same thing to me. It was John the Baptist. So I think it's okay to say, yes, Judas Iscariot is coming back, but it's not going to physically, literally be him. It's going to be the exact same spirit. Interesting. That is super interesting to think about. Yeah, and it makes sense, too, again, because, again, Satan copies everything with Jesus. He's a counterfeiter. And I think he has to do it that way, too, because Satan can't raise anybody from the dead. You know, Satan's not going to be able to raise, you know, he's not going to be able to raise Judas, you know, bring Judas back like that. But, you know, I do think that he will have some power and kind of be able to do a counterfeit one. You know, he can't come and be born the same way that Jesus was and then raise himself from the dead. So he's got a this is going to be a kind of a counterfeit resurrection, you could say. And, you know, and obviously it's going to be something that takes great power because the Bible is real clear. I mean, that the devil is going to do all kinds of powers and signs and lying wonders. He has the power to do some amazing things, but he doesn't have the same level that Jesus Christ has. So everything that he does, while it will be impressive to us, it is going to come short of anything Jesus can or has already done. But anyway, so in verse seven, it says again, it was given on him to make war with the saints and to overcome them and power was given on him over all kindreds and tongues and nations. And kind of what's interesting about this, something that I noticed a while back in the Book of Revelation, and I didn't write down all the times it does this, but often in the Book of Revelation, it will mention something without explaining it. And if you're reading through the first time, you'll be like, what's he even talking about? But it's actually explained later in the book. So, for example, let's pretend you've never read the Book of Revelation before. You've never read it. And then you're that early church, you know, you're the church you'd like to see and you're going through this and reading this. And he gets to chapter six and he says, or in chapter 11, it says, when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascended out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them. Well, who is that beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit? You know, it doesn't give any description of him and who he is at this point. And so that would leave you scratching your head a little bit. But I believe it is explained here two chapters later in chapter 13, when it's talking about this beast that comes. And again, the power is given to him, you know, to continue that 42 months at the abomination of desolation. So I think it's around that time he gets killed and he rises from the dead. And, you know, how that all is going to play out exactly, I don't know for sure. But in verse 13 of Revelation 13 says he do with great wonders. So you make a fire come down from heaven on earth in the sight of men. You know, that's going to get the Jews excited. They're going to think, hey, like, you know, Elijah's back. He's got the power of Elijah and deceive with them that dwell on the earth by means of those miracles, which he did what he had power to do in the sight of the beast, saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image of the beast and that they are which had the wound by the sword and it lives. This is talking about the false prophet here. And what are the scribes looking for? They were looking for Elijah and then the Messiah. Now you've got this false prophet calling fire down from heaven. Everybody's going to think he's Elijah. And what's he going to do? He's going to tell everyone worship the beast. You know, he's not going to call him that. But I mean, you know, the Jews are going to eat this up when this happens. And a lot of Christians too, probably. And I so-called Christians, I guess I should say. But he gave power to the life and the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he calls with all those small and great, rich and poor, free and bond to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads, and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark or the name of the beast or the number of his name. Here's wisdom, let him that understanding count the number of the beast for the number of man and his number is six hundred, three score and six. And I saw a post somebody did saying, you know, you know, the market, you know, masks aren't mandatory, but you have to you can't buy or sell unless you wear one. And same thing. Mark of the beast isn't going to be mandatory, but you can't buy or sell unless you have it. And I mean, you can see why we're all getting freaked out by some of the stuff that they're doing right now, because we know this kind of thing is going to come, that the beast is going to have this kind of power. You don't get power like this overnight. You know, you don't just go from a free world or even living in a free country to just take this mark or you can't buy or sell and you're and we're going to find you. We're going to kill you. You know, that's obviously people are going to get a little, you know, are getting a little freaked out by some of the stuff we're seeing now because we know what's coming and what that's going to look like. Again, we're speculating, you know, but a lot of people think that the mark of the beast is going to be some kind of vaccination too, you know, and I can kind of see that, you know, I don't think that's that far out to think something like that. But have you ever heard people talk about that? Yeah, yeah. You know, that's kind of interesting that you said that because I always thought in my mind that we were going to be made to take the mark of the beast. Nice. I don't mean we, but they that he would make them take the mark of the beast, but it makes sense if they can't buy or sell, you're not going to make it, make people take it. They're going to take it just because they can't buy or sell. Right. I do think though, you know, they are going to, you know, kill those who don't, but it does seem like he's mainly making war with the saints, but at the same time to the mark of the beast is a great way to smoke out all the saints too, because it's going to be mainly the save people not taking the mark. And so it's going to be, it's going to be real easy to find them, you know, especially if you have control over everyone who's buying and selling. So if they're going to be able to pull something off like this, they need, our government needs to start working on getting rid of small businesses and making it where only big corporations can survive that way that they have control of. And that kind of seems like what's going on right now. I mean, they're killing individual businesses right now, the small businesses, big corporations taking over and the government's got them under control. So, and I don't know how it's going to work too. You know, they might just tell you can't buy or sell the first, you know, it's not mandatory, but you can't buy or sell, but then later they're going to start killing you if you don't. Yeah, I think that makes sense. At first it's going to be voluntary and most people get it because you want to buy and sell, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then eventually as things crack down and as things get worse, it will be different. Right. Yeah. So, and this, as far as it being like a vaccination too, like I said, I don't think it's necessarily gonna be like a vaccination like they have today, but when you look at what they're doing with technology and some of the stuff they're talking about, you know, I could see it being some kind of thing to monitor you and something to affect your health. And, you know, I've heard all kinds of weird theories. Speculation, you know, some people are talking about these, um, vaccinations, how they're literally like changing and they're altering our DNA. And so it's like, what if they literally altered us to the point where it's like, we lose our humanity and that's why all of a sudden, none of them can get saved because, uh, you know, you've like altered your humanity where you're practically just like an animal in many ways, you know, it's all speculation. Yeah. You help it. But honestly, I could kind of see that, you know, it might, that might seem like a little far off, but yeah, it seems a little far off, but, but, you know, you know, so I'm, I'm open to anything. That's why my biggest thing is I just don't like being forced to take anything. Don't force me to wear something. Don't force me to take a vaccination. I'm just, I'm against anything that just gives the government more control than what they're supposed to have. Yeah. And you don't want to get used to these kinds of rules either that you can't enter a store without being able to, without wearing something. I mean, you have to, um, you have to stand against that. This is the early step. We don't stand against it now. It's going to just become norm. Right, right. Yeah. And, but, um, yeah, so in revelation 14, nine, and you know, this is open in some interpretation too, but it says the third angel followed them saying with a loud voice, if any man worship the beast and his image and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation. And he should be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the land. So there's no doubt that, um, if you take this mark, you're done for, uh, I do not believe in salvation after the mark. I don't believe that. You know, it's like, well, as long as you take it and you know, you don't worship it, but at the same time too, um, you know, worshiping what, you know, what does it mean to worship something? Does it mean just to get on your knees and bow and say a prayer? Um, you know, couldn't it also mean just to serve and to, uh, surrender or, uh, to the authority of something? And so the thing is when we, uh, go along with stuff like this, you know, I mean, I, even if you're not necessarily bowing a knee, uh, in, in many cases, you know, I think whenever you, uh, submit to an authority like that, you know, figuratively speaking, you are bound the knee. And so it's like, oh, you know, what, what if you just take it, but don't worship or what if you just pretend, you know, I don't, I think. I do think it's going to be voluntary, you know, but, um, as far as, uh, I don't think they're going to make people take it, you know, I don't think they're going to hold you down and force it in your hand or your forehead. But if you won't take it, I do believe they will kill you. And so, uh, I think you're going to have that option. And when you say, uh, well, I'll take the mark and then think you're just going to go and bow the knee, but pray to God instead or something like that, and you're just going to trick them. I don't believe. I don't believe. So I think when you agree to take it, I think that's you surrendering. I think that you bow on the knee and, you know, worshiping the beast. And so, um, you're better off dying, you know, just die. Don't take it, uh, because you will drink of the wrath of God. It says in verse 11, the spoke of their torment has ended up forever and ever. They have no rest day nor night who worship the beast in his image, who server received the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints. Here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. And, you know, if you study, you know, just that word patience, that's often used in revelation and even other gospels, you know, it is a reference to, uh, being willing to, you know, suffer for the cause of price. We see it used in that way a lot. And, uh, this is going to be a time where we're going to, you're going to have to have some faith and you're going to have to be willing to suffer and lay down your life. And you shouldn't be surprised when that day comes because there have been many times in our history and even in some parts of the world now where being a Christian, it will cause you to lose your life and it's worth it. You know, it's, it's worth it, but it does take faith. And, um, I, I believe if you're truly saved and you have the Holy Spirit in you, I do believe that, uh, I do believe that God will, you know, give you the courage during that time. You might not think you have it, but you will. Yeah. And you know, about the Mark, it makes it seem like it's something more than just like an RFID chip because it's, it's, it's something that it's not forced on you. Like you said, it's, you would think that if it was just like an RFID chip, they'll just make you take it. It seems like it's something more. Um, well, think about this too, though. Another reason I don't think they're going to force it as far as, yeah, I don't think no, I don't think anybody's going to get held down and told to take it. But when you look at all the horrible stuff that's going to be going on in the world during that time, they're going to, they're not going to have time. They're not going to have the manpower to go sending soldiers to just, you know, hold people down and make them take it. I think they're going to tell, you know, I think they're, they would rather just shoot you down, you know, they want to depart, you know, uh, take down our world's population. So, um, you know, these rebellious types, I think they're just going to want to get rid of you. And so I don't think they're going to waste any time, um, doing anything like that. So I think you're just going to have to go into hiding and I don't think they're going to come looking for you, but, um, you know, this is where it's going to be good to have that cabin in the woods and some, you know, food stored up somewhere during that time. Cause I mean, they might go looking for us if they have the manpower, but I think they're, they're, I think they, they're going to think we can eventually just starve them out. We've got control of the food. We've got control of pretty much everything. They have to come to us. And when you see the type of famines and things that are going to be going on in the world during that time, it shouldn't be a surprise. Cause in the book of Genesis, we see that there was a famine that was so bad in the world that the only place you can go get food was Egypt. Everybody had to come to Egypt to get food if they were going to survive. And it was probably, you know, that seven years of famine that made Egypt rise to power like it did and become a world power because, uh, they were the only ones ready for what was to come and the rest of the world was desperate and had to have them. So if we've got all these horrible natural disasters and things happening in the world, and we've got a really powerful government, then it's not going to be easy for them to do a lot of these things that the Bible talks about. It's kind of hard to picture it happening now, but probably not so much, you know, after we've had, you know, three and a half absolutely horrible years. Yeah, yeah, it's true. And you know, one question I had is said that the dragon gave him his power. That's, that's referring to Satan, right? I think it's referring to, I think it's referring to the kingdom personally. See, I always thought that referred to Satan, that the dragon gave him his power because whenever the Bible talks about the dragon being Satan. Right. And I mean, it's one of those things, I think in that particular passage there, it's referring to a kingdom, but Satan's called the dragon too. And I think a lot of it's because Satan is behind all these things in these kingdoms. So on one hand, you could say, yeah, Satan gave him the power, but the way it's going to look like to us, we're not going to see Satan do anything, but we'll see, you know, like the United Nations or something like that, granting all power and authority to, you know, to the Antichrist. And that's interesting too, because what do we see in Revelation 4 or 5, we see the 24 elders who all are wearing crowns, casting their crowns before the feet of Jesus. And I believe that's symbolic too, of all power and authority going to Jesus Christ. And when Jesus Christ returns, it talks about him wearing many crowns. My opinion, I think it was 24. You know, if you ask how many, I think it's 24. I think it's just showing how, you know, all power and authority it has. It's been granted to him and, you know, and so Satan, he's going to, while that's going on in heaven with Jesus Christ, he's going to be doing his own, you know, thing like that down here on this earth where they're giving him all this power and authority and he's setting things up and that, but, you know, eventually though, Jesus is going to come back with his crowns and he's going to kick the devil's backside. Yeah. So one thing I never really could grasp is like, where is the Antichrist based out of? Is he based out of Jerusalem? Well, I had a, yeah, so I think he's based out of Jerusalem. Okay. And let me show you a passage on that. Oh, let me see. I know I got it in here somewhere. I think it's in Revelation 17. So it says the beast that thou saw us was and is not and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition. So was and is not, he was alive, he died, but then he's going to ascend out of the bottomless pit. I think this is when Satan takes over and go into perdition. That is just like Judas, you know, he, when he, Satan entered him and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. And they behold the beast that was and is not and yet is. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth. And most people agree these seven mountains are referring to world kingdoms. And this seventh is that kingdom of the Antichrist. And so there's five that are fallen. One is, which was the Roman empire, and another is not yet come. And when he cometh, he must continue a short space. That Antichrist kingdom and the beast that was and is not, even he is the eighth and is of the seven and goeth into perdition. So the beast that was and is not, even he is of the eighth. So again, the same body that was that seventh king is going to be the one who's that eighth, but he's a different person too, because it's the devil. And it says in the ten horns, which I saw, so ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet, but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. So I believe something's going to be set up some kind of world government of ten kingdoms, but then they've only got power for one hour because as soon as they get that power as kings, they're given all their power to the Antichrist. So they're going to give all their power and strength unto the beast. Now, I don't have it in front of me. In the book of Daniel, when it's doing the prophecies about the different kingdoms, we see the prophecy of that image of Nebuchadnezzar and how the bottom, it's the feet with the ten toes mixed of iron and clay. And then you have the stone that's cut out of the mountain without hands that smites the feet, it hits that tenth kingdom, and that stone, it grows into a mountain that fills the whole earth. I personally believe that that is referring to that kingdom, the kingdom of Jesus Christ, it smites the kingdom of the Antichrist, and then that kingdom grows through all the world. Well, where is Jesus going to rule and reign from? He's going to rule and reign from Jerusalem. So you have Satan, the main counterfeiter, who's always trying to steal Jesus' spot. Of course, he would try to set up his kingdom in Jerusalem. That's where the abomination of desolation is going to take place. So I don't think there's any doubt that the Antichrist is going to try to rule from Jerusalem. That's why I watch what's going on in Israel, because I do think that's where a lot of these things are going to take place. And so, yeah, I do believe that seventh kingdom is going to be in Jerusalem. And I think that's more evidence, too, that Jerusalem is not Babylon, because I do think this seventh mountain, the seventh kingdom is distinct from what we see later with Babylon. I think Babylon is just kind of what helps put the Antichrist in power. But Babylon is something that is used. But I do believe that the Antichrist kingdom will be in Jerusalem. There's no doubt about that in my mind. I think it almost has to be that way. Well, it just makes you wonder what events are going to have to take place for that to become a reality, because it just seems so unlikely in the time we're living in right now. Right. Well, yeah, again, speculating, and we try to make everything fit our situation now. But, you know, if Babylon is definitely going to be instrumental in working with the Antichrist and giving him power, well, if we were going to help any other country in the world, if the United States is Babylon, what country would that be? It'd be Israel. They're our main ally. They're the country we worry about the most. You know, the Middle East is the most unstable area in the world. That's the area we're always thinking about, that we always need to focus on. So it would make sense that if we were going to stabilize the world, if the Middle East is the cause of all the world's problems, and we're going to stabilize the Middle East, that we have a strong kingdom in the Middle East. So it's not going to be Iraq. You know, it's not going to be Iran. You know, if we were going to help somebody come to power in the Middle East, it's going to be Israel. And our country, the United States, it does not fear a powerful Israel. It wants a powerful Israel. It wants a strong Israel. I don't think it wants it to be stronger than us, but it wants it to have a lot of power. But at the same time, I do. I think we're going to help it get to power. And then once it's done with us, then it's going to get rid of us. You know, because if Israel were to get too crazy and out of control, you know, the United States is the one country that probably could stop them. And so I think we're going to get double-crossed big time after we basically get them into power. But, you know, that's speculating, too. But, you know, again, while in many ways it seems far off, in other ways it doesn't seem far off at all, because we've seen what, you know, a pandemic, how much it can change the world. And listen, we're going to be seeing the effects of this, of what we've done to the world through this over the next several years. It's going to change a lot. I mean, you know, you think about how it's affected our country negatively, and it really hasn't been that bad. I mean, the stock market just broke another record, hit 30,000, the Dow Jones hit 30,000, you know. But this is going to be horrible for a lot of other countries. I think what's taking place this year in 2020 is going to, over the next few years, change the dynamic of the world globally as far as who the big players are and who's leading in different things. I don't know enough about that stuff and follow world events enough to know or to predict what that's going to look like and how it's going to play out, but there are going to be some changes globally when it comes to things. I think five years from now, if you go five years into the future and start watching the news, we're going to be hearing a lot of countries talk about that nobody's talking about today, because things have changed that much. So it wouldn't take much to set things in motion to get this stuff going. So now, do you believe that the temple will be here then when the Antichrist has the deadly wound and stuff? Do you think he'll be? I do. I mean, yeah, yeah, I do. I mean, obviously, there's other possibilities and things out there, but in my opinion, the temple has to be here for all of that. And that's my opinion. It's a strong opinion. I think there will definitely be a temple. And I think the temple being built, I think that's what's going to set most of the stuff in motion. I think those are going to be the key events where we're going to know that this thing is winding down when we see things happen with the temple. But again, too, and back to how things can change globally, this year I went to the World War II Museum in down in Louisiana, New Orleans. And one of the things they mentioned that I thought that just blew me away when I heard this is before World War II, the American military, it was number 21 in the world. We were behind Romania. Romania had a bigger and stronger military than we did just a little over 70 years ago. I mean, that blew my mind to think about that because now, 70 years later, I mean, we are the number one military in the world. We are all over the world. When you think about just how much things have changed just with America in the last 70 years, man, I would never just assume that even and get too cocky in the idea of even America being Babylon because while I do think if it were going to go down today, it would be us, 50 years from now, we could be back to being nothing. We could be back to not even mattering anymore. It's amazing the way things can change in the world. You think about Babylon and what the Bible tells us about Babylon and the kind of power that Nebuchadnezzar has, and yet he lost it all in one night. And one night, Medes and Persians came under Belshazzar's reign and took over and changed everything. And that kind of thing can still happen today. You know, a nuclear war could change everything. So, you know, while certain things make it seem like decades away sometimes, there's other things that make it seem like, you know, it could be next year. Yeah. Well, when the Antichrist comes to power, it talks about him having a bow and went forth conquering and conquer. So that bow kind of signifies that there's a war, right? It's not just like a conquering through disease or something. The bow kind of signifies to me it would be more of a war. What's your thoughts on that? Well, yeah. Yeah, I hear people say, well, there's a bow, but there's no arrows. Well, I mean, what is a bow without arrows? You know, so I think it's the war. But the Bible talks about, you know, and then if you go back to Revelation or not Revelation, Daniel, it talks about, you know, him doing things through peace. So, you know, maybe he's got that bow going through the world threatening everybody with war if they don't make peace. You know, I don't know. I think I don't have a whole lot of strong opinions. Yeah, because I've heard people say, especially now because this virus saying that that would that could be a virus. But, you know, I don't know if I would subscribe to that, but you never know. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I've heard people give a lot of really strong opinions on that, and that's fine. But I can't get dogmatic on really anything with that. The only thing I'm really dogmatic on is when it all the first seal, when it's all getting kicked off, it's really going to be about one guy coming to power. And so how he comes to power, whether it's through wars, whether it's through peace treaties, you know, could be a mix of a lot of things, too. Yeah, yeah. I think ultimately what that's all about is one guy getting a lot of power. Because as we've been going through these passages in Revelation, almost all the references to the Antichrist or the Beast is talking about the power and the authority that he's given. It is about one guy being given all this power and authority. And it's also, you know, we see that same thing going on with Jesus Christ. We see in the beginning of Revelation, all this power and authority and glory and honor and in heaven being given to Jesus Christ. And then on earth, we see all this power and authority and honor being given to the Antichrist. And again, it's like Satan's kind of trying to mirror what's going on in heaven, you know, but everything he's doing, it's in open defiance. But I also think it's very clear that while the devil's behind all this, at first it is going to be an individual. I'm not looking for anyone to rise from the dead and just show up on the scene. I think it's going to be somebody who is naturally born and living on this earth that's going to obtain a great deal of power. But I do believe that the seed of his power, I guess you could say it is going to be in Jerusalem. I think that's going to be the place where he has authority. So I typically expect to see him come from there, but it doesn't have to be. You know, it could be Jared Kushner. You know, they give Jared Kushner all this power and authority and he decides, you know, and I'm going to set up my throne in the land of my people. And he goes to Jerusalem, so he could rise to power in the United States. But eventually, though, I don't think the Antichrist is going to be a president of the United States. But that's not to say that's impossible. But I do think when the Antichrist is doing his work as the Antichrist, his place of authority where he will, or his headquarters, I do believe is going to be in Jerusalem. And that is my opinion, but it is a strong opinion, too. So where you get the passage where in 2 Thessalonians 2.4, can we talk about that? Yeah, yeah. So let me read it, make sure I'm quoting it all right. But yeah, in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, I believe Paul is basically quoting the book of Daniel here because he's, you know, he's telling these people here on 2 Timothy, he's telling the people in the story, you know, not to be deceived that the day of Christ is at hand. And he says in verse seven, for the mystery of iniquity that already work, only he who now leadeth will let until he be taken out of the way. And when that wicked shall be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. Jesus comes back after Satan does his show. And so, and it says, and for this cause, God shall send them a strong delusion. They should believe a lie, but they all might be damned who believe not the truth, but had pleasure and unrighteousness. Now, hopefully I get the details right in this because I don't have my notes in front of me on this, but this is a passage where, again, in the pre-trib world, they get super dogmatic because of their inspired notes and Schofield's Bibles. And I'm saying that sarcastically where they want to talk about, you know, he who now leadeth be in the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit, you know, is restraining. The thing is, one thing we've got to understand about 2 Thessalonians 2 is this is a letter by Paul written to the Thessalonians. Okay, so here's what you've got to understand about this. What he is mainly dealing with in this passage is he is warning them about being deceived by those who are saying that the day of Christ is at hand. Okay, this is what he's talking about. Now, a lot of times, you know, we go to this passage wanting to find proof for something that we already believe, but we can't forget what he's really talking about here. And he's writing to the Thessalonians, telling them, he says, that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first. And he says, let me see if I can find it. Well, what are you looking for? Yeah, I'm looking. Oh, yeah, yeah. Two, four. Verse five is a key verse we've got to get here. So when he refers to this event, whoso exalt himself above all that is called God, or so there's worship so that he is God's at the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, that that's practically a quote from Daniel. He said, this has got to happen before the day of Christ comes. And then he says in verse five, remember ye not that when I was yet with you, I told you these things. Okay, so what does he do? He's reminding them of something he already talked to them about. I don't know what that was. I wasn't there. I never went to the church in Thessalonica and heard Paul speak on these very things. I didn't get to hear his seminar on Bible prophecy. Okay, I wasn't there. I didn't get to hear that. So the thing is, when I see he who now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way and a lot of these things, I can speculate and I can guess on what he's talking about. But here's the thing. I don't have to know for sure what it was, because at the end of the day, I know the people he was writing to would have known what he was talking about right there. You see what I'm saying? And so I can speculate on that as long as my speculation lines up with the rest of the Bible. And saying that it's the Holy Spirit, that doesn't line up with the rest of the Bible at all, but that they will use that as proof. I will use that and just say, I don't know what he was talking about for sure right there because I wasn't there. They were because he tells him, remember when I was with you and I told you these things? He wasn't going to go and then write down everything he told them. He didn't need to. They knew what he was talking about. But you and I don't. Okay. And you say, well, you know, the Bible is incomplete. And it's well, no, it's not incomplete. This is exactly what he wrote to these people. He just didn't talk on the subject that we would have liked him to talk about enough. So we can't go getting dogmatic about what he's talking about right there. We really don't know. Here's what we do know is that the day of Christ cannot come until after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And until after the abomination of desolation, because there's no doubt he's talking about the abomination of desolation there, because he's practically quoting the book of Daniel when he talks about him being in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. And then I think that's the same thing that we're seeing, too, in Revelation 13 when he's blaspheming, because to go into a temple and to say that it's the temple of God and then to declare yourself to be God, that's blasphemy. Yeah, and it's definitely not going to be the temple of God if it's the third temple. That's not a temple of God. Yeah, and people get confused by that because they think, well, it's calling it the temple of God. Well, he's calling it the temple of God, but that doesn't make it the temple of God. But it would be blasphemous to call it that when it's not that. And that's exactly what he's doing with that. It would be blasphemous for me to build someplace, myself to build, and just to refer to it as God's temple and to make my own Ark of the Covenant and things like that. That would be wrong for me to do that kind of thing. And it would be a very blasphemous thing. Right. Well, so we know the Antichrist has a political rise. We know that the Antichrist will die and then raise from the dead. We know that the Antichrist will declare himself God. What else do we know about the Antichrist as a kind of closing thought here? Well, here's what we know about the devil. The devil hates the saints. I mean, he hates them bad. Now, it does appear that the main assault on the saints takes place after the abomination of desolation when Satan has indwelled the Antichrist. Now, don't get me wrong. I do think there will probably be plenty of persecuting and killing of Christians under the Antichrist, the man. But at the same time, too, it might not be to that extreme. Ultimately, what we're seeing with the Antichrist before he's Satan is this is a man coming to total power. And so that's what we're watching for. We're watching for a guy who comes to total power, who's kind of running the world. Because first of all, that's not how things are supposed to be run. But the thing is, once that guy comes to power like that, Satan is going to enter into him and he's going to have a full on assault on the believers, on the Christians, because that's obviously who he hates the most. And so we should be against a world government. We should be against nations all coming together. We should be for sovereign states and sovereign nations and people being able to do their own things. And who are the biggest villains in the world today? From the globalist news media. It's guys like Donald Trump who's more nationalist. It's Putin who's more of a nationalist. It's Kim Jong Un. They hate countries that do their own thing. And don't get me wrong. Some of these guys are bad guys. Obviously, I don't want to live in Russia. I don't think Putin is a great guy. I definitely don't want to live in North Korea. I definitely don't like Kim Jong Un. But these countries, they all do their own thing and they don't really give a rip about the rest of the world. And that drives the globalist crowd crazy. They want everybody coming together and coming into agreement. And that's why they need to... They talk about the destabilization of the Middle East. Well, why is it so unstable? I wonder if it's because of us invading it and us going and trying to change things over there. But here's the problem with those Muslims. They do their own thing too. They don't get along with the rest of the world. I think when it comes to different countries, I think we ought to leave each other alone. I don't think we need to be invading all these other countries and getting in their business. But if we're going to have a world government, we have to do that. If we're going to have a world government, we've got to get control over things in the Middle East. If we're going to have a world government, we can't let Putin be strengthening his own country and them doing their own thing that doesn't go along with the rest of this world. We can't have guys like Kim Jong-un doing his own thing. There's a lot of stuff other countries do that are bad. But America is not supposed to be the world's police. They need to fix their own problems. And our country's got a lot of problems. I mean, good night. If there's a reason to invade another country, how about invade a country that goes and it kills millions of its own babies? I mean, that seems like a pretty legitimate reason to do that. But as an American, I would prefer to see our own country rise up against the government and overthrow those leaders. I would rather have a civil war than a bunch of people from another country with another God and another way of life coming over and stopping that stuff. I don't want the Muslims coming and stopping our abortion. I want us to stop the abortion. I don't want the Muslims fixing our morals and taking care of the homos in this country. I want our country to do it. That's what I would prefer. And if these other countries want to destroy themselves and live under the misery of Sharia law or communism, whatever, let them do it. That's up to them. Yeah. And one thing people need to realize is we're against the New World Order. We're against, you know, globalists and stuff. But, you know, the person that's behind all of that is Satan. And he's been around all this time and he's been planning this agenda. And it seems like it's all coming into fruition towards the end times. And you can see it all kind of come into place, just like the Bible says. So this has been a fascinating conversation. What can we take away from this discussion, Pastor? What is some of the positives out of this? Well, the positives is that it's obviously getting close. You know, we know this stuff's going to happen. And I think the importance is it's the same thing we talked about when we talked about the temple discussion. You know, we did a lot of speculating and we could be so dead wrong on a lot of things. This is our way of watching. You know, we're keeping an eye on things. We're seeing what the Bible says. We're comparing it to what's going on today, because this is how we watch. This is how we prepare ourselves. And so the things that are clear that hopefully got from this is that I do agree with what you said, that the dragon is the devil, but the dragon also in our eyes is kind of these world governments. And they are going to give all that power to one guy. We should be against anything that promotes that, even though it's going to happen. I don't support, you know, bad things like that. And I don't support a world government. I hate the United Nations. I'm against it. And even if they do some good things somewhere, overall, I think they do more bad for the world. And we've got to understand that what we're seeing going on in these kingdoms of the world, it is the work of Satan. It's the work of the devil. And he is going to centralize that power, and it's going to go to a man. And that man will eventually be taken over by the devil himself. And it's coming at Christians. But when I read the book of Revelation, while it talks about some pretty bad things happening, it also uses some pretty victorious language, because at the end of the day, you know, when we die for our faith, that's victory. That's not a loss. You know, that's victorious. And when we, a lot of people too, when they think about dying, you know, it seems like a terrible thought because of all that you're going to miss. Well, once we're in the tribulation, the only thing you're going to be missing is some pretty bad days. It's not like we have a future anyway. So, you know, forget about your plans of retiring and seeing the world and stuff like that. Once this all gets kicked off, you know, there's no future left on this earth anyway. But you know what? There is heaven. There is the millennial kingdom. And those who do not receive the mark, they're going to live in, and those who are killed, they're going to live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. So I'm not going to get real worried about the next, you know, 30, 40, 50 years of my life and what I want from that. I'm going to think about those thousand years. And how those thousand years ago is going to be directly related to what I do on this life right now. And being martyred for your faith, I don't think there's much more you can do to help out those thousand years than that right there. So I think you should see it as a great opportunity. Yeah, you might lose your finances that might have given you a few good years on this earth. But you know what? If you lose it all for Christ at the end of the day, you're going to have a thousand years with Him. So there's nothing to fear. We should see it as an opportunity. Awesome. Well, and we know who wins. You know, Jesus Christ is going to win. He's going to sit on the throne. And so that is a definite positive as well. That's right. So, well, this has been a super interesting discussion. Obviously, we didn't talk about every mention of the Antichrist. We could have gone on, I'm sure, another hour, no problem. But, you know, it's do your own research and, you know, read the Bible and find and look into this stuff yourself. We obviously speculated a lot, but, you know, there's a lot of truths we can glean from these passages. So I appreciate you coming on, Pastor. Thank you for having me on. I enjoyed it. All right. God bless. All right. Well, that was a super interesting conversation. I appreciate you guys tuning in to the program. Make sure you head over to his website, GiveMeLibertyBaptist.com and check him out over there. He's doing great things. He has all of his preaching on the website so you can watch more of his sermons there. Also, guys, make sure to head over to FramingTheWorld.com. We have a lot of new t-shirt designs in. And I want to show you guys some of these because they just turned out awesome. 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