(Disclaimer: This transcript is auto-generated and may contain mistakes.)

So you miss home or what? By the way, this is very casual. This is a very casual setting. I'm talking about like, you know, Texas. I'm not talking about heaven or anything like that. Yeah, I can't wait to go die and go to heaven. I'm saying like, do you miss going, do you miss Texas? Do you miss your home in Texas? Like on this trip? Yeah. No, not at all. Oh, you don't. Okay. Wow. Whenever you travel, do you ever miss going back home? Yeah. I mean, I think if I was on a trip and the food, sometimes when the food's not very good, or the weather's not very good, like I could, like if I'm in a really cold area. Like where? I mean, like I've gone to Oklahoma City, like we have our church plant or if you go even further north, like sometimes we went on missions trips at faithful word, like we'd go all the way to Michigan or we went to Minneapolis, Minnesota, I think it was. I mean, it's so cold there that it's just like, I just want to be somewhere where it's warm. Is Oklahoma cold? It can be. Really? It's very windy. It's actually very similar climate to what I grew up in. Because I grew up in the Panhandle, Texas, and they have a lot of, it's in fact Amarillo is kind of where I was near. I lived in Canyon, but it's like 10 minutes from Amarillo. Amarillo is like the windiest city in the United States. Really? There's like one other city sometimes that's on a list higher than it, but it's like in the mountains or something. I thought Chicago for some reason. Well, Chicago is like three or four, depending on like kind of what list you look at. Yeah. Yeah. Amarillo has like a higher average wind. I guess how strong the wind is, like how many miles per hour the wind is on a daily basis. And it's cold. Well, it gets cold. Okay. Amarillo, you get all four seasons. Oh, okay. But is it snow there? Yeah. Oh, wow. Pretty much it snows every year. This is in Texas? Yeah. Unbelievable. But you get like 30 mile per hour winds as a daily average. Wow. So, but I mean, you'll have days where it's like 50, 60, 70 mile per hour winds, and it's just like, I got to a point where I just hate wind. Yeah. So like that's one of the things I loved about Phoenix is it was never windy. And it's just like, I just loved it. Even though it was like really hot, like you're kind of on the surface of the sun, but at the same time, just no wind was just so delights them for me. Did you just like live with chapped lips or something? No, I don't have a problem with the, I mean, I think you get used to it a little bit. If you haven't been there in a while and then you go, it's kind of like, especially in the summer, you kind of like, wow. Like I recently preached there. I think you did as well. No, no, no. I'm sorry. I mean, in Texas where it's windy. Yeah, you can. Yeah. You get really bad chapped lips. And if you start licking your lips, it just gets really, really, really bad. You ever seen kids like that where they just can't stop and then they, they have this ring around their mouth? Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty bad. They get it when they drink a Powerade too. Cause they're like, suck. They suck the top of the lid or whatever. It's like, then they have this red ring around their mouth or something. You said you went to go preach at Faithful Word. When's the last time you went to, was that the, when's the last time before that that you went to Arizona? Probably our pastor's thing. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. The pastor's retreat. Yeah. So I've been there a few handful of times since, uh, having gone and started the church at Pure Words. Um, not that many times. Okay. But we really, we loved it in Phoenix. It felt like we're on permanent vacation. We didn't miss Texas then either. Um, so, you know, I love Texas obviously. And, uh, but it's kind of, it's kind of hard to say it's home just cause I've been to so many different parts of Texas. Like I grew up in the Amarillo Canyon area and then we lived in Houston for awhile and now we live in DFW. So I guess nothing has ever felt like this is home. Like I guess they all have, they all seem like home in different ways. They all have their place. In the history of pastor Jonathan. Right. Cool deal. Well, I think we can get started. I think pastor Shelley is easily warms up here. You seem to get pretty, um, you're pretty comfortable in a mic, so we're going to go ahead and get started. All right. All right, folks. Well, welcome to the rod of iron podcast, fundamental Baptist, breaking down discussions, dogma, and daily events. I'm your host, pastor Bruce Mejia of first works Baptist church here in beautiful Southern California. And we have a special guest with us this episode, pastor Jonathan Shelley of steadfast Baptist church and pure words Baptist church. And he's a great friend of ours. He actually just finished preaching for us, um, yesterday, Sunday morning, Sunday night, great sermons, great messages. And we've been hanging out for the last couple of days. And so thankful to have you on the podcast, pastor Shelley. Yeah. I'm so glad I get to finally be here. I mean, I had one other previous time where I was on the show, but it was really short. And, uh, I had to play all the parts, but, uh, it was a lot of fun. Oh, by the way, check the cameras. Check the cameras. The cameras must cafe. Yeah. He, he pretty much destroyed us on that, uh, on that, uh, little video that he made about us, but, uh, I counted an honor though, you know, and so, because we're easily copied and I guess, well, when you have great content to work with. So, so pastor Shelley, good to have you on the, uh, on the show here, we're just going to shoot the breeze. Just talk about your upbringing, how you got saved, how you got into church, how you became a part of the new IFB, you know, what's going on now, uh, at your church. Of course, we, we know about the persecution taking place, but we might go into some specifics, just to kind of talk about that and just talk about persecution in general, as far as Christians are concerned and what the persecution that you faced, what that means for Christianity now in 2022 and, you know, going forward. And so, um, we're looking forward to having you on the show here. Of course, you're here with your family as well. Your wife's here with your kids. And, uh, we were hanging out at Knott's Berry Farm on Friday and going on some rollercoasters. So that was fun. And then of course we had them on Sunday here. And so we're looking forward to a great episode. You ready? Let's do it. Can you honor us here? Let's do it. That was like a Texas version. I don't know if he was going to break into techno or what. Well, good deal. Well, pastor Shelley. So tell me, when did you get saved? Well, I grew up going to church my whole life. My parents, uh, were both very, um, involved in church. What kind of church now? Both of my parents were raised assemblies of God, which is actually Pentecostal. And when I, um, they, they met in New York and that's where I was born. But then when I was very young, we moved to Dallas Fort worth area. Do you remember your time in New York? I don't know. I was like two years old. So, uh, I was kind of early raised in the DFW area. We live in Keller and my parents took me to church called church on the rock. And it was just kind of like a non-denominational church. And I think this is after the assemblies of God. Well, I never grew up in assemblies. God churches. They did. Yeah, they were, that's their upbringing. So essentially they would take us to churches though, growing up that are like non-denominational where most of the non-denominational churches from the nineties and the early two thousands are kind of like spin offs of a lot of Baptist churches and things like that. But a lot of them maybe have become kind of liberal or some of them became what they consider charismatic. So they kind of delve into some of the charismatic giftings like speaking in tongues or things like that. And this church, I don't remember anything charismatic about it. Um, what was the church called church on the rock? Oh, church on the rock. That's right. And so, but this church, everybody sang together. And then as soon as the singing was done, the kids would go to like a separate area and the adults would stay for the service. So like a kid's church and every single week at the end of the kid's church, someone basically gave like a pretty abbreviated gospel and then would just ask kids to come down and accept Christ. And I just remember about five years old. I mean, I had that opportunity several weeks in a row and I finally decided that I wanted to accept Christ and believe in him for salvation. Now, whenever I did that, the day that I did that, I went home and there was two kids that live right next behind us because all the neighborhoods, they didn't have an alley. So the backyards are connected to each other. And there's two twins that live next to me, like right behind my house, that we're all the same age. And I went over there, I tried to get them saved. So, so we'd always jump on the trampoline together and hang out. And so I'm like trying to preach the gospel to these kids. I don't have a Bible, you know, I don't even hardly know what I'm saying probably, but I tried to convince them to get saved and one of them wanted to, and the other one didn't. So do you remember what you would tell them? No, I mean, that's so long ago that I, I'm sure even what I would say may not be exactly accurate, but to the best of my knowledge, like I remember just saying things like, we're all sinners and if you don't believe in Jesus, you'll go to hell and that Jesus died on the cross and that salvation is only through, you know, accepting Jesus as your savior. That would probably be in essence kind of what I was explaining. And so I explained that and one guy wanted to pray with me, so I prayed with him and the other one didn't. Now I don't know that I was the best soul winner back then because then we started making fun of the other kids saying he's going to hell. But you know, it's funny. I, um, later in life, thinking about these things, I went and looked up these two guys on Facebook and I found both of them and they both go to like a non-denominational church, which, you know, I don't know what to think about that, but like his family, their family were like atheists and not saved, didn't go to church or interested in those things at all. So just the fact that they went to a church, I was just thinking like, well, maybe they, you know, maybe that at least had an impact in their life for sure. And I don't even know for sure if they're saved a hundred percent. I think I tried to reach out one of one of them, but it didn't really, we just didn't connect. So I don't know. Well, either way. I mean, let's say they didn't get saved. Obviously you did plant a seed, you know, because the fact that they didn't have like a Christian upbringing, their family was atheists, but then for them to be in church, you know, obviously you played a role in that. So, I mean, that's kind of just, you know, I believe I got saved at age five. Then, you know, I grew up in a lot of these churches that are kind of just these big non-enoms. We moved to the Amarillo Canyon area when I was in second grade. So it's only in the DFW area for a little while. Then we pretty much went to a church called Trinity Fellowship Church. And that's where I pretty much spent the majority of my life is going to this church. Up until what age? Hmm, probably, let's see, till 20, about four, 2013, 2014, sometime in that range. So it would have been around the time my son was born. So maybe like 25 ish, kind of that time of age range. And this was just a non-denominational church. They were charismatic. And this is how they self-describe. They described themselves as Babticostal. So they said that they were Baptists in doctrine, but charismatic or Pentecostal in giftings. That's crazy because I remember being at my old IFP church and they would always mention Bapticostals, but they would like mock. They would talk about churches or Baptists that get a little too wild in the south and they're kind of like running up and down the aisles. Yeah. But they would call them, I thought it was the name that the old IFP gave them just to kind of like mock them. But this is, that's how they identify themselves. Yeah. The pastors got up and said, like, we want to clarify where we stand and we want to make clear that we're Baptists in doctrine, but we're Pentecostal in like gifting. So we consider ourselves Bapticostal. I was just like, I'd never really heard that. That's all I'm kind of exposed to. And in fact, our church was a little weird. Like we had ladies that would like carry the flags and they would like spin and wave at them during worship services. So like, like they're going up and down the American flag. No, no, no. Oh, like they have, they were dressed in all white and they would have like these white banners and flags and stuff. And they would just like dance up and down the aisle. And it was just a worship free for all. And like you, it was taboo. You weren't allowed to say it was weird, but like everyone thought it was weird. You know, like everyone's kind of like trying to walk around the person like, okay, you know, whatever. But then they would try to like defend it. They would say like, now we here, we let people just kind of worship however they see fit. And so there was a lot of just, it was just kind of a free for all. So they would, they would take white flags and just dance around during the scene. Yeah. Like they'd go up and down the aisle and just kind of dance and they would twirl and spin and just like, it was really bizarre. It's very distracting. Yes. I mean, me as a kid, like I just thought like, okay, that's weird. I'm not involved in it, but I just didn't pay attention. It was just, but I mean, I noticed it obviously. So, I mean, the church was weird. It had a lot of weird stuff, but it was mostly just, you know, surface level and they, they would say good things, but then they would also teach a lot of false doctrine. And a lot of it was just out of both sides of their mouth. So they would say, salvation's by faith alone, but then they would kind of teach a Lordship salvation alongside of that. And they would teach like one saved, always saved, but then they'd have a guest preacher come and like contradict that. Yeah. So it was just kind of like anything and everything. Would they, would they ever do like exorcisms or anything like that? I mean, there was a class. I was, I was going to lots of classes. I was very involved in the church. So I'd do all kinds of different things. There was a class where you could kind of learn how to be empowered in your giftings. And it wasn't specific to that, but it was like broader, but that would be like an option. So like you could end up getting the gift of interpreting of tongues or of tongues or of like casting out demons or like those kinds of things. So it was just kind of like, where, what team do you want to be on in the church? And there would be teams that would make visits and stuff and do, I don't know what they were doing, but it was just like weird. Like they, you talk about a team of exorcists. They wouldn't say that, but they would call it something like, I don't even know what they, like a power team or something, but they would just go to pray for anybody and it would be broad. So it'd be like someone could be just sick and they're just going and just laying hands on that person to pray that they would get healed, but power team, but it could be like as extreme as like an exorcism or, or weird things. And sometimes these, these preachers or pastors would come up with these wild stories. Were they allowed to choose their own group names or what? Yeah, that was kind of, I mean, the naming this church was weird, but I'm just saying like, if it was like, we're the power Rangers. Yeah. I mean, there was some weird names, but there, I remember in the youth group, it was way more wild. And I remember a pastor came and the youth department would always be like, there was a new pastor like every year. So like no one ever stuck, you know, it was always just random people. And sometimes it was really weird people. Is it because they quit or like they had some headquarters just like scandals and quitting and just everything you could imagine basically. Um, but one of the pastors got up and said that he went to Africa. It's always in Africa, but he went to Africa and this guy died and they're at a funeral or awake. And he's, he says that the Lord told him to pick the body up out of the casket and throw it against the wall. And he's like, he's like, no, I can't do that. That's not appropriate. And then he's like, but then the Lord told me to do it. So then he says he picks the body up and throws it against the wall three times. And then the guy came back to life. And no one's doing anything about it during, after, after the first time he just, everyone's just looking at him do this. I don't know, but I'm like, here's the thing. I'm like a kid, you know, I'm like 10 years old or 11 years old. And like, it was just really weird because you kind of want to trust the authority. But at the same time, like I remember stories like that, I'm thinking like, this is weird. But that was a lot of what they did. They sensationalized everything. Everyone at the church that's in leadership always acted like God just constantly talking in their ear. And they just have this like personal relationship with him in the sense that like, all they have to do is just talk to him on a phone basically. Not like through scripture, but just like this audio they're hearing him. And I just remember as a child growing up, like I always just wanted that. I just wanted to talk to God or like have him talk to me. And they would always say like, you just get in your room alone and you just get really quiet and just like kind of meditate and then God will just speak to you. And so like, I just remember doing that all the time. Like I would read the Bible and I'd pray and then I would just try to just sit quietly and just like wait and just hope that like I would hear this voice or like God would talk to me or something like that, but it just never happened. And so it just really played a lot of like, it messed me up. Cause I just like, I would think like, am I not saved or something? Or like, why is everybody else able to do this, but I can't, or is God mad at me or like, and it wasn't that I thought I wasn't saved because I didn't understand the gospel, but I'm just like, why is it working for everybody else? But it doesn't work for me. And it was just like super confusing. That's funny you say that because like, I remember going to like an apostolic church before I got saved and they're charismatic, they spoke in tongues and all that. And the, my friends that were there who invited me to go there, they all spoke in tongues. And I remember them making like a really big deal about that. Like you have to speak in tongues to communicate with God and for God to communicate through you and all these things. And it kind of really, it bothered me that I wasn't able to do it. And I remember being in the, in the service and just kind of, you know, everyone would be speaking in tongues and I just, I think I was like, I don't know, 14 or something like that. And just kind of putting my head down and just like trying and it just wouldn't come. And I remember kind of being disappointed in myself, just thinking like, why does it, why is it happening to everyone else but me? Or why can't I do this? It seems to come to them so easily or they're able to do it. And I was just like, it just really bothered me the fact that God wasn't using me to speak in tongues, but obviously it's a good thing because, you know, maybe some of these people were actually demonically possessed speaking in tongues, you know, but I can relate to the fact that it bothered me the fact that it wouldn't happen to me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, our church, a lot, most people spoke in tongues and, you know, my perspective on, on tongue speaking is a little bit different just because I grew up in it, that I think that some of these churches, like the Bethels of California, where they're barking like a dog and some of that, I think that is demonic possession, but I think that 90 plus percent just faking it. It's, it's a fake thing, but they think it's real though. It's not like they're truly doing something that they don't believe in. They believe in it because when I was around 12, 10, 12 years old, they took me to a student camp and there was all of us in the room, like 30 of us students, and they just basically said, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna lay hands on you guys and you're all gonna speak in tongues. And it was just like, okay. And, and it kind of became this event where you had to speak in tongues to leave the room. To leave the room? Yeah. They didn't say that, but like essentially what would happen is if a kid's speaking in tongues, then you got to leave, but, but everybody else is just there until it happens. Right. And I just remember myself, like I was really skeptical and kind of weirded out by the thing, but it means being forced on me in this particular event. I'm by myself with all these camp counselors and stuff like that. They're trying to get everybody to do it. And I said, okay, well, this is real. Then I'll just let it happen. Right. So I just kind of stood there and everyone does it and leaves. And it's just me with all these camp counselors by myself and I'm just standing here and they just keep praying and laying hands on me. And they're just like, you know, let it happen. And I'm just sitting here and I'm like, nothing's happening. And, and I, I was just, I felt very uncomfortable. And then finally one of the camp counselors, he just kind of like whispers in my ear and he just says, Hey, you actually have to like talk yourself. And then, and then like the Holy Spirit will like come upon you or whatever. And so, but here's the thing, like everybody just kind of repeats the speech pattern that everybody else was saying. And so you just kind of do the same thing. You just kind of say some gibberish and then they're like, Oh, you're full of the spirit. And then you walk out. Right. That's funny. So I just remember through that encounter, like being still very skeptical and just not knowing like, is that like, is this real? Did I, I don't even understand it. It really freaked me out. But like my parents were really into it. And it, I kind of got into the point where I was later in life where I kind of thought maybe it was real. And so I would still try it and stuff, but I just, it wasn't anything special. Like it would just be like, if you just spoke any kind of gibberish or any kind of foreign language or you said anything, it would be kind of like singing a song without words to it. And that's the kind of feeling that you would get from it. And I thought that, I thought that maybe there was something spiritual related to it kind of, you know, my dad would use the verse in Romans chapter number eight, which talks about the Holy Ghost making intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And that would be his proof text for that speaking in tongues thing or whatever. But once I started like finding a lot of different preachers that I realized like my church was wrong on things and the Bible actually teaches different, a lot of this stuff. I really studied that topic about speaking in tongues and I realized it's not in the Bible. And by the time that I kind of started studying this, I ended up, I wasn't even doing it anyways. And so it just became a thing where I just completely stopped and was like, this is dumb. This isn't real. Yeah. It was, it's, it's not honoring to God. And so, you know, it's funny is you said that the count, the camp counselor kind of whispered in your ear and said, Hey, you kind of have to like talk. Yeah. Right. I had a similar experience. I went to, um, it was my aunt and she was, she was a Pentecostal and, and, um, she took me to her Pentecostal church and I was there with my cousins and they were doing like full blown exorcisms and stuff in there. Yeah. It was, it was really scary. And I think I was like 11 or 12 and everyone was going up to the front to kind of like lay hands on them and just kind of like get them to speak in tongues or, uh, exercise the demon out of them or whatever. And I was just sitting in the back and I'm just like, kind of like looking around, like, this is crazy, you know? And, and then my aunt's like, you need to go up to the front. And I'm like, ah, you know, D, I don't really want to go. And, and she's just like, no, you need to go. You know, it'll, I don't know if she said like, they'll exercise the demons out of you or something, but she pressured me into going. So I went to the front and there was like a bunch of people in the front. And, um, I remember just looking and this one lady just like fell to the ground and just started kind of like seizureing and they're just like praying over her. And I'm like, I'm like looking at her and I'm just like, this is crazy. And they actually ended up taking her to the back. So throughout the entire service, you could just hear her yelling in the back, you know, cause she's being exercised, but the person who was like laying hands on me, there's two people right next to me. And then there was a main guy who was like laying his hand on my forehead and he's like praying. And I'm just like, like, I just closed my eyes and I'm just kind of listening and he's praying and he's, he's like, kind of like pushing my head, you know, and he's pushing and he's pushing. And then he pushed to the point where I just kind of took a step back. Yeah. And then he actually went up and he whispered in my ear, like he said something to the extent of like, either let yourself fall or this is where you need to fall. And I was just like, I don't want to fall. Like, I just told him, I'm like, no, I'm okay. And then I just kind of stopped and I went to go sit down. But I remember thinking to myself when I was 12, like, why would they have to tell me that? Right. I mean, and it really bothered me. And I never went back to my aunt's Pentecostal church, but I just thought that was funny because they did the same thing to you. It's like when someone doesn't play according to the rules, they're just like, Hey, this is where you need to like kind of do this. Right. And I mean, most people do though. And so, but I mean, I really tried to like be objective about it and just try to study it. And what I noticed about the speaking in tongues is people in these churches all speak the same, but it's different from another church. So like, they'll all just have like a Hebrew type, just weird gibberish. Whereas you go to another one, it's like click noises and like weird kind of sounds, but like within that church, they all sound the same because it's like a man taught speech pattern. And I even noticed with people in my family that would do this, they always said the exact same things in the exact same patterns. And I'm thinking like, well, if this was special, wouldn't you be saying like different things to God? Like, why would you always be just saying the exact same phrases or if this is an angelic language and why is every church have a completely different sounding dialect, but it's all the same in that one church because that one church, you have one guy just kind of spread his weird nonsense, Jim brush to everybody and everyone's just using the same pattern. Yeah, exactly. And they just kind of sound the same. So some sound kind of Hebrew, some kind of sound like an African click language. Some sound like more like baby gibberish. Yeah. And it's just kind of like a weird hodgepodge, but most for the most part, churches all kind of sound the same to each other, but like the church that I was going to the stuff that you're describing would have never happened or it would have been such a rarity. It would have been weird. Everyone freaked out by it because most people going to the church weren't even charismatic at all. It's, it's bringing in Catholics, it's bringing in Methodist, it's bringing in cowboy church. It's bringing, you know, it's just kind of like a cowboy church. Yeah. What is that? You don't know what a cowboy church is. I don't know. Okay. So in Texas, they have cowboy churches and, and it's literally a giant rodeo arena and there's a church right next to it. And all the people that go are only Cowboys. And then they have rodeo right after the service. Well, I mean, and it's called, it'll be called literally just a cowboy church. Are they like doctrinally sound churches or no? They're, they're like hardcore works. All of them are hardcore works. They're probably, I mean, they're probably similar to a Baptist in a lot of ways, as far as like doctrinally, but then they're just hardcore works. So like maybe a church of Christ or an as a rain or something like that. It's kind of a blend of, of that, but how we church. So this is a thing in Texas. It's called cowboy. Oh yeah. They're everywhere. There's cowboy churches. Yeah. There's one that I even reached out to a guy because he was preaching against, um, the Aids community. And he has like thousands of people that come to his church and they, I mean, it's, it's a big deal. Like, and they all wear their belt buckle and their hat and their boots and like, it's like a big deal. Wow. So after church, they just go ride horses. Yeah. They have like rodeo or do things or whatever bull riding or, you know, wow. Whatever. Can't get more Texas than that. It's like, we should have golf church. We play golf. No, I'm just kidding. Like skater church. But that stuff exists. Like there's skater churches and hip hop churches and like, and the church that I was going to is trying to do that on a mini level because, um, they have like life groups is what they would call them. But then they would try to have your life group centered around an activity. So you'd have like a group that skates and they would be like the skater group and you'd have like the, and they had a skate park in the church. Our church is like the powerlifting. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Y'all's life group would be powerlifting for sure. And I did a, I did a student group where I taught basketball. Like I did basketball and then taught the Bible. So like I'd have a bunch of kids come and they had a gym there and we'd play basketball for half an hour and then I would teach like a lesson. Oh, okay. I see how that works. And so it's kind of like, it's trying to, you know, engage people and draw people into the church by just saying, Hey, come play basketball with us. But then you kind of like bring up some Bible things or whatever, instead of having Wednesday nights Bible study, that's what they do as a replacement. I see. And that's how cowboy church works. Well, no cowboy church is like a big version of that. If you think about it, it's just like basically we just, you know, have rodeo or whatever it is that they do. And then just everybody that's kind of semi-cowboy goes to that church. Wow. That's funny. I never heard of that before. Yeah. It's bizarre. But again, that's what I think modern Christianity is today. It's not really unifying around biblical doctrine. It's unifying around like interests or hobbies or demographics. Like you have in Texas and a lot of areas like black churches. Yeah. It's like, it's not really about doctrine. It's just that everybody there is black. Yeah. And I remember even listening to one of these church services because I was looking at their website and kind of seeing what this guy was preaching. And he was like, even kind of like making fun of white people coming to their church or something like that. But I was just like, I mean, I liked a lot of what he was preaching, but then he was kind of making fun of that. I was like, that's just kind of weird that you would isolate your church to just like only black people or so they call themselves Baptists or no, it's called adamant Believers Council. But there is a lot of black churches that are Baptist or missionary Baptist. Yeah. Well, before I never even heard of independent fundamental Baptist. I just figured every Baptist church is a black church. And when I was invited to an independent fundamental Baptist, it was by a white lady. And when she told me she goes to she was going to a Baptist church, I kind of scoffed at it. I'm like, but you're like white though, you know? And she's like, Oh yeah. So it was my pastor. And I was like, your pastor is white and he's pastor of a Baptist church. Cause I never heard of anything other than like a missionary Baptist church, which are primarily obviously black people. Right. But that's the first time I've ever heard of fundamental Baptist is when someone was inviting me to a church. But, and I figured like even Southern Baptist churches are black churches. Well, they're predominantly white. Yeah. I know that because of their history. Cause I, I preached a sermon and I can't remember the name of it, but I, I traced Baptist lineage all the way to steadfast Baptist church. It was just like the goal of the sermon. And so like it kind of technically started in Europe with a guy named John Smith. It was like, are you, are you a Baptist brighter or what? No, no, just from a secular history perspective, like people using the label Baptist, it's like supposedly traces back to a guy named John Smith and like you're in England or something. And then like the first Baptist in America is like Roger, Roger Williams, Roger Williams. And then in Rhode Island, I think there was like 12, 15 Baptist churches that are all kind of like loosely associated. But then because of racial tensions, they ended up kind of dividing eventually into like the Southern Baptist convention and Northern Baptist churches. And because the Northern Baptists were more pro obviously not being racist, essentially, and pro black people, that's where you get a lot of those missionary Baptist churches were spawning out of that Northern Baptist movement. Whereas the Southern Baptist movement was really strong on slavery because they had a missionary who was a slave owner and the Northern Baptist churches said that they were not going to support him financially because they thought that was wicked to give their money to an evangelist that was a slave owner. And the South said that's an attack on the gospel, that they won't fund the slave owning evangelist. So they had a, they had a convention and they separated and that's where the Southern Baptist convention was formed, was based on slavery. So there was not black people, a lot of black people going to these Southern Baptist churches for a long time. Now, obviously they kind of slowly softened on that particular issue and it's changed, but yeah, most Southern Baptist churches are predominantly white. Yeah. Roger Williams is the guy who baptized himself. Really? Yeah. And he's not necessarily the first Baptist pastor. He, um, he's known as being one of the first, but there's actually like another guy. What's his, what's his name? Do you remember his name? John Clark was actually the first one. Okay. Um, but Roger Williams is probably the most popular one as far as like what people know to be like the first one. Cause I think he was in Rhode Island. And then, um, the guy who was responsible for starting like a ton of churches, like in the South was actually, his name was Schubel Stearns. And he kind of started like under a tree with the congregation. He was formerly like a congregationalist, but then like a Baptist got him saved. And then he ended up switching to becoming a Baptist. And then like out of his church, obviously he didn't, out of his church came 5,000 churches, but obviously he wasn't the one who started the 5,000. It's just like they, he started these churches and those churches started churches and that's where they were to credit the Bible belt coming from is from that guy. Okay. But I mean, he was, you know, as far as I know, he was doctrinally sound. He was a saved guy from what the history says. And, um, when you, when you read about them, like these, these, um, I think they call them like separate Baptists. They kind of, they sound like new IFB guys. Like they sound like new IFB pastors only because like they were, they would preach against the congregationalist, like Dio Moody, who was a congregationalist. They would often show up to like his camp meetings and he would actually take like, uh, Dio Moody would like take questions. He would do like a Q and A, and then people would ask him doctrinal questions. And then the Baptist is like, why are you baptizing babies? And he'd be like, next question. Cause he didn't want to like, but he was responsible for converting a lot of the congregationalists to become Baptists. And so, and they would always like, they, they, they said that, um, they knew who the Baptists were because when the Baptists were coming to town, most of the preachers in those days would wear wigs. Um, like, um, you know, like the Jonathan Edwards type guys, they would wear these wigs, but they knew the Baptist cause they looked more rugged. They said they looked more manly. They would come on horses and broad brim hats type of a thing. And there were more coarse in their language. Well, some people have some interesting ways to speak, you know, Paul said that his speech was contemptible as with the accusation they made against him and that he was rude. Yeah. Don't be rude in speech, not getting out of knowledge. Exactly. Well, I mean, my, my view on history, as far as, as Baptists and churches and stuff is I, my personal philosophy is that churches have gotten better over time that like, as time has gone on, that churches have had the opportunity because of, of having more knowledge, more information that like the Baptist churches have gotten a little bit better and more doctrinally sound over time. Cause he kind of, we're kind of like spinning out of the dark ages from, you know, into the Renaissance or to the reformation. And then, and then from that, we have a lot of churches coming over here and kind of, uh, you have the divisions between the Northern and Southern Baptists, but to me it keeps getting better because like even the Southern Baptists, that's where you get some of the greatest preachers coming out of it. Like Jack Hiles was ordained a Southern Baptist preacher and you had J. Frank Norris that was also kind of left the Southern Baptist convention. And they were both very instrumental in independent fundamental Baptist churches becoming a thing or becoming popular or a lot of churches were started because of Jack Hiles. And I kind of tied that with Pastor Anderson, eventually going to that college, being trained and going and starting a church. And so I don't think that I can personally detach myself from Southern Baptists and stuff like that is saying like, there's probably some roots there. There's probably some history there, but my viewpoint is that just churches have constantly been getting better. Yeah. And, and I look at it like hezekiah where when he is finally going to perform the Passover, it's like they, they did it really well or better than they'd done in the past because they finally did it. Like it's written, you know, there's a phrase where it's like they did as is written. And I look at it like the new IFB is kind of taking a lot of the good that we've been handed down, but then we're just like doing exactly like what's written and it's like better. Yeah. And in my philosophy is that there's no cap on church becoming better. Some people like think like, Oh, we got to go back to this time in the past when church was actually really good and get back to there. But I think that we can actually get better than what the past was like and do bigger works or greater. There's no, there's no cap as it were as to how good our church could be and that it could arguably be better than some of the really good churches of the past. There's nothing stopping us. You know, I've actually never thought about that, but I do agree with you on that because I would have these frustrations when studying like churches in times past where it seems as though like they're right in certain areas, but they weren't on others that would be very obvious to us to be right on. Or they had certain practices that, you know, just seemed kind of off. And it's just like, man, these churches were great churches, but they had these doctrinal issues or they weren't strong on this particular doctrine. And it would make sense that, you know, the more into the future we're getting into or the closer we get to the second coming of Christ, the churches should get better. Right. And especially now because of technology, we have more information available to us. You have more pastors in churches that have made mistakes, so to speak, that we can learn from, that they should get better, not become worse. Because I think I've always heard that we've gotten away from New Testament Christianity. I don't know if you've ever heard that before. Like people often say like we've gotten away from, you know, the old paths and Old Testament Christianity, but they don't really point to a specific thing. They always have these like ambiguous examples of just like, you know, we don't love as much or they were more fiery back then or they were more on fire for God or whatever. But you can't really like, there's no meter to that though. You don't really know that. You know what I mean? Whereas the way I determine if a church is on fire for God, are they evangelizing? Are they getting people saved? Are people in the churches turning to righteousness? Are they cleaning up their lives? Is the preaching doctrinal? Is it fiery? Is it making an impact? Then, you know, that church is on fire for God, you know. And obviously you can't, I'm not saying that churches like that didn't exist back then because we don't believe in church ages or anything where it's just like all churches behave in this specific manner in this particular era. I'm sure there's churches that were doctrinally sound and fiery and all that. But what I'm saying is like, I think because of technology and because of the internet and our ability to be able to communicate with other pastors and to travel to different areas, like we are able to do greater works than those of the past as well. And then information, yeah. Information is just available. Like you can listen to sermons. I can listen to so many sermons in a day. Plus I can search the Bible with like the internet or I can do Bible searching software. And of course that's going to help. Like it's not that there's anything wrong with doing those types of things, growing, studying more. We can analyze the Bible at a much higher level than before. But I even just, I've thought a lot about this and I've preached several sermons on it. So like, I was trying to think like, is this biblical? Because there's always this phrase or this idea out there like, well, let's go back to the church in Acts chapter two, like let's go back. But then I think about it practically and I'm like, the church in Acts two was a mess. Like the church has kept getting better in the new Testament. Yeah. And they constantly had lots of problems that they had to solve. And from a practical perspective, it's, it's, it's kind of weird to think that a church where you have a whole group of people that were completely unsaved, worshiping false gods, and then the next day they're saved, that that's going to be the best church that you've ever seen. You would think, no, actually, once these people have been plugged into church, reading the Bible, going soul winning, doing the works for a long time, then the church could actually be a lot better than when it started. And to me, it's kind of like our church plants. Like, I don't think that pure words, Baptist church or steadfast Baptist church was the best day. One, it keeps getting better. We get to add more people into the repertoire. Our soul winning is getting better. We're doing bigger works, greater works. Like even coming this time to preach for you guys, like your orchestra was great. But when I came the first time, there wasn't an orchestra. And so like, to me, it's like the church is getting better. Yeah. It's not waxing. It's not, it's not waxing worse or declining. And we're not talking about like doctrine either. We're talking about from like an administrative perspective, right? Like even the administration gets better. Organization gets better. Like the, like we, we shouldn't go back to Acts chapter two, for an example. But Acts chapter two was still better than what Jesus and his disciples had. Right. Where they're like, they're still kind of putting it together. Well, they understand the gospel better. Yeah. As evidenced and they, they get the Holy Spirit filling. So they, and they understand the Holy Spirit a lot better. Right. But I'm just saying like, even me personally though, like if you're going to say, is Pastor Shelley a worse or better preacher than when he started? Does he know more or less of the Bible than when he started? I would say that I know more. Yeah. And I'm better equipped now. So even from a doctrinal perspective, we're kind of splitting hairs. It's not like I changed all my doctrine or anything necessarily, but did I tighten some things up? Your knowledge is increasing. Yeah. Explain things better. Understand things more. Yeah, I think so. And I think that there's nothing wrong with that. I think that the more we go into the future, our churches should theoretically even get a little bit better on doctrine, even if it's only 0.1% or, or whatever that is. Like, I hope that our church continues that trend of getting better and better and, and we get closer to the coming of Christ. I think we're going to understand end times Bible prophecy even more. More will make sense. We will have less predictions that are just kind of off the wall. There will be more like in line with exactly what's going to happen and we'll just kind of be seeing it unfolding before our eyes. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I think we know more about end times prophecy today than many Baptists knew probably like 50 years ago. Yeah. And aside from the fact of just studying things out more and, and learning the Bible more is just current events kind of shed light on a lot of what's going on in end times Bible prophecy. And it helps us to kind of see things more clearly. Cause you know, you think about, you know, a hundred years ago when they think about the mark of the beast, I think, well, what, what, how does that work? You know, how would that, but now that would make a lot more sense. If you think of a chip or neural link or something like that, like just the technology sheds more light on, you know, what's going to happen in the future, the closer we get to it on modern science. I mean, just the fact that understanding things like germ theory or understanding, um, how travel was going to increase into the Bible, talked about how travel was going to increase. Well, people might not have understood what that meant before airplanes, uh, railroad and vehicles and all these other modes of transportation that have really exploded. The idea of traveling across the world in a single day might've seemed impossible to people or just television, TVs, phones, how everyone in the whole world would be watching a singular event in one part of the globe. Like that might've seemed too far fetched. So I just, again, my thought process is that as a church, we're not capped by some limit of the past of like, this is how good our church can get. It's like our church could theoretically just keep getting better and better and better. And we should strive to be the best that we can to follow the Bible as it's written, not necessarily what tradition dictates, but what does the Bible dictate and doing it that way. And then too, you know, like as a church, um, grows, you know, it remains for years on end, like you think of families that grow and then you start bearing second and third generation Christians who kind of already have these principles and these doctrines embedded into their families. And it's just becomes like the norm of believing these things, like the quality does get better because, you know, right now we have a lot of churches that are just first generation Christians, but then when you start getting into the second and third generation, I mean, that, that only improves the church. You know what I mean? Like, I think of like, for example, my wife, okay. Who's a second generation Christian. She kind of went into church planning with me already knowing a lot of things about church administration and organization because she grew up that way already. So it kind of, we're kind of like ahead in the game in certain areas because of the fact that she's already experienced a lot of these things. We were already a part of that, you know, so you think of a church that has been around for 50 plus years or something who started many churches. They have a third generation, fourth generation Christians or whatever, maybe, you know, these people already, they don't have to go through a lot of the struggles that we went through to just learn administration organization. They can already know these things. Yeah. I would think that my children or children that grew up in our churches that end up wanting to become a pastor or evangelist, like they're going to be better equipped than I was having to kind of learn the hard way about doctrine and a lot of these things. Obviously there's benefits to that because I have a lot of experience about what's out there and I don't have to learn through someone else. I can learn through experience, but at the same time, I think it's better to have a good testimony and I've been raised in independent mental Baptist. Yeah, for sure. I think that they could have a major impact and they could make church better too. I'm not going to limit them and say like, oh, you couldn't be as good as dad or pops or whatever. They could potentially be better as long as we continue to teach them, train them. Well, the Bible refers to them as like arrows. You know, you think of an arrow goes farther than what you can go. Yeah. You know, and just like a really practical illustration would be like, you know, you have a first generation Christian family, right? The dad gets saved, the mom gets saved and they start singing in church or something and they're not really good at singing. You know what I mean? They just kind of don't know how to sing the hymns, but when they raise their children in church, though, their children are going to be like some awesome vocalist in the future because they grow up singing. It's already a part of their life. Whereas us, we have to kind of like learn how to sing. We have to learn the hymns. We have to learn these things. Whereas them, it's just already part of their life from the time that they were born and up, you know? So again, and the encouragement would be the young generation that they can be better and that parents should encourage their children to be better than they are. Not try to cap it at dad. Yeah. No one can be dad. It's like, well, why don't we strive to do better? Yeah. And that was a big motivation for me to get into doctrine, even becoming new IFB is thinking about children because I, we waited to have kids and, uh, that wasn't the right decision, but we didn't know any better. And, and, uh, we waited, but eventually we got pregnant and around that time I kind of started thinking about my kids and I started thinking like, if I don't change in my life, like my kids are going to be just like me and make a lot of the mistakes that I did and go down paths that I wish they did. They wouldn't. And so I kind of was motivated to like, learn the Bible better and just be a better person for my kid's sake. And that's what kind of caused me to start studying the Bible itself and looking up different preachers. And I started realizing my church was wrong about a lot of things. And the biggest catalyst was young earth. Creationalism. I'd never heard about that before. Um, and I actually was exposed to it by Ken Ham, guy that has the arc. Um, he was debating Bill Nye and they were promoting a debate between these two guys for like a year in advance. So I think their debate was sometime around the end of 2014 or maybe the beginning of 2015, somewhere in that timeline, but they were promoting it way early because you know, they want a lot of people to follow it. And I saw one of the posters and I, I knew Bill Nye was, but I didn't know who Ken Ham was. And I thought like, this seems like a really important debate, which is, it wasn't, but I just like, in my mind, I was like, oh, this is a big deal. And I was like, I want to look up this Ken Ham guy guy. Cause I hope he's not a bozo cause this seems like a big deal. And Bill Nye and just get shut down, you know? And I started looking up his information. He was talking a lot about young earth, creationalism, his ministry is called answering Genesis. And I liked a lot of the material just cause I'd never been exposed to it. But then I remember seeing somebody in a comment say, Oh, Kent Hovind is way better. And so I went and looked up Ken Hovind and I agreed. I thought like, wow, he's a lot better at articulating these things. And he was King James only. And that's what actually exposed me to King James only as in was Ken Hovind. And he made like a 17 or 18 minute video where he just explained how there was differences. And I think one of the first examples of use was how the NIV said Elhena, the son of Jehorigim slew Goliath. Whereas the King James says that he slew the brother of Goliath. And I just instantly became King James only in that moment. Like it was just, I'd never really been exposed to King James onlyism or anything. And I used different Bibles. I used the NIV, New King James, things like that. But I just instantly was just like, Oh wow. And then I started researching it and became more and more like understanding of that doctrine. But what confused me is that when I would show other people how there was differences in the Bible, they didn't care. Like it really, it really shook me to my core. Cause I would like walk up to family members or people and I'd be like, look, see how this is saying something different or like this is saying somebody else killed your life. Like you can't use that Bible. And they just like, Oh, it doesn't matter. Who cares? And it just really, it was really confusing to me. For some reason, apathy just makes no sense to me. Like I get being backslidden. I cannot understand apathy. It's like the most infuriating emotion. I get so frustrated by it and I don't even know how to fix it. If I was a, if I could learn one thing, it would be to learn how to fix people's apathy. Yeah. Cause that just infuriates me. But that's kind of what got me on a train of just like studying the Bible, realizing my church was wrong on things or was lacking and teaching these things. And that eventually led me to listening to Sam Gipp and James White. Cause they were the only two. You went through all the bad people. Oh, there's probably more too. Yeah. Yeah. But Sam Gipp, he had some good information on the King James Bible. Well, obviously I think he's a heretic. I don't, I don't like Sam Gipp, but at the time just contrasted with James White, who's like the devil incarnate almost seems like it felt like Sam Gipp was a good guy. Yeah. And, but there was a video, it was titled like response to James White's response to Sam Gipp. And it was Steven Anderson. It was pastor. Anderson was the video and I watched it and it was like seven minutes and the video quality was the worst video quality I've ever seen, but the content was really good. He was just like standing behind one of his murals or something. And he started quoting Beowulf. Oh, I remember that. And then making fun of James White's pronunciation of words. Like he was like a dough and a choler is what, like he said instead of choler. And so like, he's making fun of him, not being able to pronounce words that are in the King James. And I was like, wow, that was a really good video. So then I started watching pastor Anderson's preaching and it was kind of the first time I really was exposed to independent fundamental Baptist preaching. Was that in 2014? Sometime in that. Yeah. I think it was in 2014. You had been married for at that point. Five years. Okay. Yeah. We had been married for five years. I had still been going to Trinity fellowship all through that time, but I started questioning my church a lot. I was, I was involved in a student group and I was trying to get kids saved in there. And so a lot of my research was also like, how does the best way to present the gospel and stuff. And when I finally found pastor Anderson, he really emphasized a soul winning and things like that. So I really started modeling a lot of his soul winning and tried to learn how to preach the gospel the way he did like to Dave persons and it's a little mini video or something like that. And I didn't, I still didn't even know independent funnel Baptist churches existed. Like in my mind, only Southern Baptist churches existed. Did you think he was a Southern Baptist? I didn't even know. I didn't really think about it. Okay. And then until start listening to his preaching, then eventually kind of made a distinction about independent funnel Baptist. And I was like, Oh, what is that? And then I looked up and there was like eight in my area. I had never known these churches existed, but they were mostly all bad. They're like Ruckman Idler, like weird things. Yeah. But I just was like, you know, I, maybe I should try one of these churches. And I approached our leadership at the Trinity fellowship church about like King James only ism, things like that. And I could tell they were really off. They said that was the most ignorant doctrine they've ever heard in their life. And so we just left the church and just started trying like all kinds of Baptist churches. We were trying some independent fundamentals, some other Southern Baptist, and really we just was, it was frustrating because no churches were very good in our area. And it became kind of like contention between me and my wife just because like, we just couldn't find a good church. And it was just like, it was frustrating. We didn't know where to go, but eventually we ended up finding a church there that was independent funnel Baptist. They were King James only gather pre-trib and stuff like that. But it was like really a blessing to us because it was so refreshing to be around people that just even cared about the Bible. And so we kind of started getting plugged in there and I was listening to pastor Anderson a lot and I kind of decided that maybe I wanted to be a pastor only because I'd gone through that really hard phase of not finding a church. Cause when not finding a church, I'm just like, man, like, why is there no good churches in our area? Like if no one's going to do it, I'm like, I guess, I mean, I'll do it. But then I realized like, I can't just start a church out of a vacuum. Like that's not biblical. Right? So I approached the pastor at the independent funnel Baptist church. I was like, Hey, would you train me to be a pastor? And he's like, I would, but I'm retiring. He's like, you need to ask the next guy. So then the next guy came in and I approached him and he's like, well, I'll do it, but it's going to take a really long time and I'm kind of hands off, but he's like, the one thing I'm really good at is preaching a sermon. And so I was just like, okay. And so he was training me, but he never did anything. And we went to steadfast one year anniversary service. So we lived like six hours away. We drove down to pastor Marrow's a one year anniversary service. Pastor Anderson was preaching on a Friday night. And so we drove down there and I got to hear him preach in person, but the week that we were gone that Sunday, our pastor got up in the pulpit and said, Hey guys, I'm really struggling preaching and I don't feel comfortable preaching anymore. So I'm going to just read my sermons. But we didn't hear that. So we come back and I kid you not like the pastor would get up and it would just, he would just read from a paper for about 15 minutes and they added like four or five extra special musics. Cause they already had a lot of special music, but it would be like, it was like four hymns and like four special musics. And they did like three announcement times. So they did like announced at the beginning just to kind of fill up in the time because the kids' church wasn't over yet. So a lot of times we were waiting on the kids. They're preaching longer at the kids' church. The kids program was longer than the main service. So we had to like stretch, stretch it out. And it literally felt like you just took like five commentaries. And like I said, just kind of like mixed them together and just read it to us. But it was so extreme because there was a hearing impaired couple that sat kind of near us. And one Sunday I sat really close to them and I was sitting right behind them. So I'm kind of like looking over the pew and they had a piece of paper and I noticed I'm like tracing their finger. And then I look at it and the pastor had printed out his sermon notes and would give it to them. And I watched as she literally traced her finger on the line and he was just reading it verbatim. And I was just like, this is the church that was like 500. Yeah. I ran about 500 people on a Sunday morning. Wow. And it was just, this carried on for a really long time. But then eventually starting in January of like 2016. Yeah. And in January of 2016, they said, we're starting a new series. And it was on the pre-trib rapture. And he had to bring in like these specialists or something. And every sermon was just on pre-trib Sunday morning, like Sunday morning. And then that's where we get through January. He goes, you know what? This is a really important series. We're going to extend into February. So then it was pre-trib February, every single Sunday. And then we got to like March and he's like, you know what? I thought about this. And I really feel like God wants us to do this for the whole year. And like, it just like, it almost felt like this is a fundamental Baptist church. Yes. I almost felt like God was just like kicking me out of it, like out the door. And I mean, the pastor would make crazy statements, just like, you know, no one, no one could debunk anything that we've said, you know, like I'm just sitting here thinking like, well, he did ask me to preach one time. Were you already post-trib at that point? Yeah, I was post-trib. So I was always pre-trib growing up. My dad was not, he didn't agree with it. So we'd argue about it. And he was post-trib. No, he was nothing. He was just anti pre-trib. He was just like, pre-trib is not in the Bible. And I would just be like, yeah, but it's gotta be sometime like the rapture is in the Bible. So it's got to exist sometime. So he didn't really have a position, but I remember me and my wife, like, because I was taking things seriously, I said, you know what? We're going to read the Bible together at night. So we would read a couple chapters every night together. And I said, if you have any question, just ask me. And it was mostly an attempt to try and get her to become King James only, because she was kind of resistant to the language of the King James Bible. And I said, if we just read it together and you have a question, I'll answer it. And I'm like, you'll start realizing, like, it's not hard to be understood. And so like, I'm kind of going with the approach of like, I can't let anything seem hard to be understood. Right. Well, she texts me at work one day and she's just like, our next chapter is like Mark 13 or something like that. She's like, what does Mark 13 mean? And so I don't even know what her question is yet, but I'm just like, I'm just like reading the whole chapter and I'm trying to figure out what her question is. And I'm just like, this is not pre-trib. And then I just like, was like, I was caught for us and seeing with like, first Thessalonians four. And I'm just like, Oh wow, it's not pre-trib at all. And then right around that same time, pastor was coming out with after the tribulation and I kind of refused to watch it because I was just like, I don't want to watch it. I don't care about that. And then I was like, I'm going to watch that film because it's post-trib. And then I felt like an idiot after watching the film, cause it was like so clear from the film. And then I just was like, okay, it's obviously post-trib. And so going to that church, when we went to the fundamental church, I was always post-trib at that point in time. And I just, uh, I didn't care that they're a pre-trib. I was like, I can go through a few sermons. And when I went through the old pastor, never preached on it. So it wasn't even a big deal. It was just this new guy coming in, preaching it every single week. And it was just, it was, became really vexing, man. How much can you even say about, that's crazy to preach so many sermons of something that's not in the Bible. Yeah. But I mean, if it's a 15 minute red sermon, Oh, 15. Yeah. And then he has random people coming in and they would just say the same things. And it was annoying cause they would just say stuff that they would talk about soul winning though. And I mean, that's kind of the, the, the seemed good about it is they would be like, because we could go at any moment, we need to get there and preach the gospel. We need to get people saved. We have an urgency. So while I don't agree with why they believe that God used it together, like at least it's encouraging people to preach the gospel and things like that. And so, you know, I mean, there was some benefit. The church was good for us at least. It just started waxing worse and worse and worse. And finally just cut to the point where even my wife was just like, why are we staying here? Like, let's just move the faithful word. And the fact that she was on board was just like my green light. And I was just like, let's go. So I talked to my boss and I said, Hey, I want to move to Phoenix to go become a pastor of this church. And they were Christian. So they kind of like understood those things. I was like, would you let me work remote? And they were just like, we've never done that, but sure. And I was just like, cool. That's awesome. And then I went down, I worked at the bank down below our office building and I knew everybody down there. So I went down and I'm talking to this banker and I said, man, I think I'm going to move to Phoenix and I'm going to sell my house. And he was like, Hey, I know someone wants to buy your house. And I was just like, Oh man, everything just falls into place. And I said, well, look, I'm like remodeling it right now. I haven't even finished. I'm going to remodel it. And then I'll put on the market. He's like, don't even remodel it. He's like Saturday, someone come. I know someone's gonna buy your house. And I'm just like, okay. So like, he has this guy come to my house on Saturday and he's just like, don't fix the bathroom. How much do you want? And I gave him a number. He basically haggled me for like a thousand dollars or $2,000 less than what I just, my top offer. And he said, Oh, it's also cash. So you just set the closing whenever you want. I was like, okay. So literally just like everything just was like is easy. It could possibly be. And in less than like a month or something, we sold our house. I bought a house in Phoenix. Um, sight unseen. Cause I just, I could not afford rent, but I had enough equity. Like I got a lot of equity that I could buy and it was way cheaper. Cause like rent there was like 1800 a month or 2000 bucks a month or something like that. Whereas if I bought a house, it was like 700 bucks a month and I was just like, okay, so I'm just, I bought a house. I had never seen it. And then we just, we just drove to Phoenix and then I'd never been to Phoenix. I don't think. No man. And then we just drove there and then just started going to faithful word and it was great. I mean, my wife said it felt like we're on permanent vacation. It was like the greatest time. And it was, it was so much better than everything else that we'd ever, uh, been through from a ministry perspective. So you moved there what in 2016? Yeah. Okay. Sometime I think like may of 2016. And so, which we, I didn't, I didn't so many weird things like, cause I always tried to do stuff, but it was just always weird. Like I went to this addiction and recovery center cause my boss, like I said, was Christian. This is in Texas. Yeah. He would preach at this addiction and recovery center. And he's like, Hey, I'll get you in. So for like two years I preached at this addiction and recovery center like almost every Tuesday for lunch. And you would just go and like the people that would come, they have to listen to the preaching before they can go eat. And I remember asking him, I said like, do you care what I preach? And they said, you can preach whatever you want. And like some of the people that come preach would be like ladies that would come like sing song, preach and like charismatics and just every heritage you can imagine. So I just got up there and I'd preach like King James only ism. And I would just rip on all kinds of different things. And, uh, it's funny. They never got mad at me. And in fact, they started, it's like all the Bibles in there were just random Bibles. But then after I started preaching King James only ism, the only Bibles you could find in the thanks for a King James Bible. And I was just like, and I don't think very many people got saved, even though I always plug like salvation at the end, but there was one kid that at least came down the aisle, wanted to get saved. I did like an extra just Romans road check with them and he got saved. So I think I only got one person saved in two years of preaching there, but it was a lot of experience of just preaching. Yeah. And, and they gave me a present when I left and they gave me a framed picture of Jesus. I was like, this is fitting for, you know, hilarious for going there and doing this. And I only preached one other time where my pastor, it was funny, like the, the newer guy that wasn't preaching very well, he knew I wanted to be a pastor. And I always listened to like, pastor is always like, there's a prepared place for a paired person and stuff like that. So I said, you know what? I'm always going to have a sermon ready. So I like, I wrote a whole sermon and I'm like, I'm ready to preach if my pastor ever wanted me to. And I thought there would be no chance. Cause I'm new. It's a church running 500 people. They have multiple pastors on staff. Like it's kind of like not realistic that they would ask a new guy to come preach for them or something. But then he's just like, he's from the pulpit. He's like, you know what? I've decided right after the morning sermon, he's like, I just decided tonight, John of the Chile is going to preach a sermon for five minutes. And I was just like, what in the world? Like, he didn't say anything to me. Like I'm just sitting there and I'm just like, okay. You know, just got to put it on his heart. So I just like took my sermon and just took like five minutes out of it and preach for like five, seven minutes or whatever. And he asked like two other guys to do something like preach a little mini sermon or something. That's awesome. But I was just like, that was weird. But at the same time, I was like, I mean, it seemed on purpose, cause it's like, I prepared, I was ready. And so that was always my philosophy. And even at faithful word, like I never came to service without a sermon ready in hand. And it actually, you know, it benefits you because I remember one time pastor Anderson, he was like choking or something. And it was like, he wasn't going to be able to preach that night. And they asked like four people before me, but nobody had a sermon. And so then they're like, well, you preach. And I was like, yeah. But then like last minute he got over it and he went to preach. So I didn't end up preaching. But then the next time he needed someone to preach, he asked me if I would preach a sermon for him. And so, you know, I just think if someone out there like wants to be a pastor or wants to be a preacher or whatever, they should just always be ready to preach and just always have a sermon ready. And they should, they should never forgo any opportunity, every opportunity they should always take it. And, you know, I just think that's like really important. Like even with this church, pastor Anderson started this church and it was really fast to me. And I just remember one time he was just like, Hey, do you want to preach third? I'm just like, yeah. So, so we just like, he's like, give me a date. And I just gave him a date. And then we, we got to come out here and visit. And it was a lot of fun. It was in 2017. Yeah. You preached open door. I think that was a sermon. Yeah. Open doors, how God opens doors and you got to walk through them. And I guess that's just always been on my heart. It's just like whatever opportunity God gives you, you know, you just need to take it. Yeah, man. And so, so you can kind of see God's providential hand over you throughout. I mean, looking back, obviously you can see a lot, God just kind of like leading you and opening doors and. Yeah. I mean, obviously there's, there's events in my life where I don't think that I can explain it humanly speaking. I mean, it just feels like God was helping me, guiding me. And even though I don't have a perfect backstory at all, and I've raised in weird churches and weird events and been a doctrinal mess growing up, it's, I always had a zeal for the truth and I just always wanted to know what was right. And I think that that, I think when you just want to know what's true and right, God can use weird situations to get you to the right place. Yeah. So, but I mean, even my, my mom was really spiritual and, and I think that played a big role in my life. And she, she read the Bible every day and she, she, church was the most important thing to her. And she would even say like, the only thing I care about my kids, I don't care if they're, they make money or rich or anything. She's like, I just want them to know God and love God. And it was just like, it was really impactful for me. And she would, you know, they're, they're charismatic, right? But she would always say stuff to me. She would just be like, Sean, God has told me that you're going to be a preacher one day and that God's going to use your voice and that like, you're gonna, you know, she would always just say those things to me. And I didn't really, I've never really believed in like that kind of stuff, but I think just the fact that she just believed in me was really important. Yeah, for sure. And like, I kinda, I kinda got in trouble a lot as a kid being like a class clown and I was allowed and stuff like that, but then she would take that weakness as it were and then say like, no, I think God's going to use that for something good. And, you know, you're going to be able to preach one day and she just really was, she would just say it all the time. Yeah. And it was just like, and I don't, I don't even know what my mom would believe on salvation, which is sad because she died way before I kind of like got really involved with church and she definitely had some issues when it came to doctrinal things. But, you know, I wish that I knew a hundred percent when my mom believed on salvation. I don't, but you know, that's, and that's really sad for me, but either way, she was one of the most influential people in my life when it comes to spiritual things. Yeah. That's awesome. What was your mom's name? Diana. Diana. Amen. Well, it just kind of shows what, you know, you were talking about last night, the impact that a mom can have, you know, on her children from a spiritual perspective and, and like, you know, how she can just play a major role in the life of a young man, you know what I mean? And just kind of influence him for the Lord and, and help him to be the man of God that God wants him to be, you know? Yeah. I mean, they're going to spend, especially if you homeschool stuff. I mean, the mom is spending just an order of magnitude amount of time more with the children than the dad. And of course that person is going to end up influencing them more than the father would. So really, I believe for men to become spiritual giants, it's almost more important who the mom is than who the dad is in a lot of ways, because the dad can only do so much. He can only motivate the mom to be spiritual so much. And it's just such a, it's just a major role. And really when you study the Bible, most of the really good men of God had a really specific mother. And I think that's why the Bible brings up the mother often about like, and this is his mother and you see guys that have the same dad have David. I mean, which could you argue for a better dad? It's like the man after God's own heart, you got David as your dad, but then we see some of the women, not a Hennoem or some of these other women raising really bad children. Amnon, Absalom, but then you got Solomon with Bathsheba. And so I think from a biblical perspective, while obviously a father can still influence a child, a child greatly, and it's gonna have a major impact, but that the woman, the mother is almost more important in a child's life. And whenever I was seeking a wife, that was like one of my number one things is like, how is this woman gonna be with my children? And that's what attracted me to my wife so much is I knew that she was just gonna be an awesome mom. She just loved kids so much. And she just like, she cared more about sacrificing for like family than like being selfish. And that just really attracted me to her. Yeah. Yeah. I think a father plays a very important role and I would say like it is the most important role only because he kind of sets the spiritual temperature for the family, sets the direction and kind of determines where the ship is gonna go. But the hands on deck, so to speak, would be like the mom. And even if the dad wants to set a spiritual course for his family, if the wife's not on board, it's not gonna happen. Or the dad has to just work five times as hard to make it happen. But I definitely agree with that. Like if it wasn't for my wife, my kids and the family wouldn't function as well without her influence over my kids. And just her advice that she gives to me, the counsel she gives me, because she is one of my trusted advisors, believe it or not, I take advice from women sometimes. I don't know if you know that, but that's why you're so smart. Hey, that's why I'm so blessed. I'm a blessed man because of my wife. Well, I agree with you on the importance. I think the man's the most important role. There's no question. Everything rise and falls on leadership. I'm just saying that the mother has the most influence just because of the amount of time they have. They're with the kid. That whatever they do, good or bad, it's gonna influence the kid more than any other person. Whereas the dad is gonna set the tone and he can overcome these things, of course. But at the end of the day... Yeah, mom should not undermine the impact that they're making in the lives of their kids and then the family. It's very much important, essential. So again, I think most people are a product of their mother in a lot of ways, whether they realize it or not, whether it was good or bad, while as the dad kind of is, like you said, setting the course of the ship, the mom's how well you enjoyed the trip. Yeah. Yeah. So the quality, as it were. Yeah, for sure. Amen. That's good. Good stuff, Pastor Shelley. I enjoyed... And then you were at Faithful Word for how long? So we got there on May of 2016, and then I was sent out in August of 2018. So it was a little over two years. Okay. And then we started Pure Words Baptist Church in Houston in August of 2018. And then I took over Steadfast in January of 2019. So it was very quick. Yeah. And then I've been the pastor of both those churches since then. We had a church in Jacksonville, which we gave to Patrick Boyle of Revival Baptist Church. But then we still have a church plant in Oklahoma City for Steadfast, and then we have Pure Words as a separate church in Houston. Amen. Well, Pastor Shelley, you're doing a great work, and the Lord's using you in a great way. Probably not going to get into all the persecution, just because I think everyone pretty much knows what's going on with that. But we're definitely praying for you. And even aside from that awesome history that you got in the past, I mean, there's so many other great works that you've done in the future. And your church is definitely an example unto all of our churches here in California and all over the world, obviously. And your leadership, your friendship, I appreciate you. And I'm thankful that you've stayed the course. You know, it's always, I don't know if this is going to sound appropriate or not, but it's always a blessing to see people suffer and how they suffer, because it kind of shows who they really are. You know, you think of like the teabag illustration where you don't really know the contents of a teabag until it's put into hot water. And so we've definitely been able to see the contents of what you're made of because of the persecution you suffered and the tribulations you've gone through. And it's definitely an example unto us. So I just want to thank you. I appreciate you for that. Thank you for coming out to preach for us and for spending time with us Californians, you know, from Texas. And so we're going to wrap it up there, folks. Thank you so much for tuning into the Rod of Iron podcast. Make sure you, oh, by the way, where can people find your preaching, your content, and talk about your website? Yeah. So we've been trying to do an email list just because we get censored and we send out emails, all the links. So if you email us at steadfastbabdiskjvatgmail.com and just say you want to be on our email list, we'll add you to that. Also our website, sbckjv.com. You can go there. You can find a lot of our information. Also, we have been starting a new platform to put some of our preaching. It's called it's godresource.com. And you can click on a link there about the platform. It's right on the front page and it has a lot of the preaching for our church. We also put our live stream on our live stream tab for our church every single week. But those are probably the best ways to find us moving forward. And we'll just keep sending out that information via email. What's your Instagram as well? It got nuked. I don't know. Oh, does it get nuked? Yeah. Okay. What's your Facebook or is there any other platforms you want to mention? Everything we got nuked on. I mean, so really, I mean, I think that we have a YouTube channel has like a couple hundred subs. It's like love thy neighbor or something. Yeah. So I think you'd find it if you go to our website. But again, the best is the email list because no matter what they do to us, we can still send you out the email and get you the new links and everything like that. So I wasn't even big on Instagram. That was Dylan that was like, was he the one who's running that? He's really good at Instagram and stuff like that. So he was helping us. I think I have like, I had an account. It was Andrewster05 and I had like 60 followers and I had no posts. And then I uploaded two videos recently and I think I have like a hundred followers now or something, but I haven't even done anything much with it. So I don't even know. I tried to change the name to something like Steadfast or whatever, but it won't even let me change the name. So I don't even know, but for sure. Well, make sure you follow him, subscribe to his channel, make sure you get on the email list and the God resource as well. And that's pretty much it, folks. We're going to call it a day for the episode. Thank you so much for tuning in. And we're looking forward to seeing you all for the next episode. Pastor Shelley, God bless you. Have a safe trip back home. Looking forward to fellowshiping with you and seeing you again. Great. Thanks so much for having us on the show. Absolutely. God bless. Thank you.